From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Sat Feb 18 22:00:41 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA00345; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 22:00:41 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA27714; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 22:06:56 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09664; Sun, 19 Feb 1995 03:06:55 GMT Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 03:06:55 GMT Message-Id: <199502190306.AA09664@world.std.com> To: london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu From: Majordomo@world.std.com Subject: Welcome to homestead Reply-To: Majordomo@world.std.com content-length: 1200 Status: RO X-Status: -- Welcome to the homestead mailing list! If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, send the following command in email to "Majordomo@world.std.com": unsubscribe homestead "Lawrence F. London, Jr." Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to, in case you don't already have it: Welcome to the Homesteading Mailing List! ----------------------------------------- Are you interested in: * Living off the land * Energy-efficient housing * Building your own home * Becoming more ecomonically independent * Raising your own food and/or livestock If so, you've come to the right place. This list is a place for current and prospective homesteaders to discuss independent living. I'm hoping we'll get some discussion going on topics like: * Getting started - financial planning for independent living, locating land, etc. * Stories from experienced homesteaders * Making ends meet - how to homestead and earn a living at the same time * Energy independence So, welcome aboard, and feel free to jump into the discussion at any time! Andrew Evans Homestead List Administrator aevans@cais.com aevans@world.std.com From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Feb 20 11:47:26 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA10563; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:47:26 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA27112; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:53:20 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19652; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 16:48:39 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19622; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:48:37 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA18945 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:48:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:48:35 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: How much land is enough? To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 853 Status: RO X-Status: Hi y'all - As you may know by now, I'm in the process of selecting land for homesteading, and I'm wrestling with trying to figure out how much land I really need. I'll have a large organic garden (big enough to provide a large portion of the food for a vegetarian family of four) and I'll need a big enough woodlot to provide fuel for heating. Anyone got any good rules of thumb for sizing a homestead plot? Cheers, +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Feb 20 11:47:26 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA10563; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:47:26 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA27112; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:53:20 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19652; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 16:48:39 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19622; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:48:37 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA18945 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:48:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:48:35 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: How much land is enough? To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 853 Status: RO X-Status: D Hi y'all - As you may know by now, I'm in the process of selecting land for homesteading, and I'm wrestling with trying to figure out how much land I really need. I'll have a large organic garden (big enough to provide a large portion of the food for a vegetarian family of four) and I'll need a big enough woodlot to provide fuel for heating. Anyone got any good rules of thumb for sizing a homestead plot? Cheers, +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Feb 20 12:24:02 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA25704; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 12:24:02 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA00389; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 12:29:56 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12820; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 17:13:33 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12799; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 12:13:32 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id JAA23455 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 09:13:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199502201713.JAA23455@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 09:13:11 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: How much land is enough? X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1551 Status: RO X-Status: > >Hi y'all - > >As you may know by now, I'm in the process of selecting land for >homesteading, and I'm wrestling with trying to figure out how much land I >really need. I'll have a large organic garden (big enough to provide a >large portion of the food for a vegetarian family of four) and I'll need >a big enough woodlot to provide fuel for heating. Anyone got any good >rules of thumb for sizing a homestead plot? That depends on where you want to be more than enything else. A place in Arizona may provide a longer growing season and shorter heating season but there would bot be enough rainfall to keep up a woodlot. Places in Washington state have a short growing season and a long heating season but enough rainfall to keep up a woodlot. I have heard that in the midwest that 5 - 10 well cared for acres will provide all the wood needs you will have. John Jeavons claims that an intensive garden with a 6 month growing season need only be 1000 sq. ft. to feed a family of 4 and he has 2/3 of that in grains. Again weather, pests, and water will modify that. I researched this issue and I think that 10 - 20 acres in the lower midwest could provide food, fuel, and income for a frugal couple if you went in with a low debt load. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Feb 20 13:03:53 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA13325; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 13:03:53 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA04690; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 12:53:39 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04319; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 17:47:42 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04297; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 12:47:40 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA04557 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 12:47:40 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA21018; Mon Feb 20 12:46:53 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9502201746.AA21018@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: How much land is enough? To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 12:46:52 EST In-Reply-To: <199502201713.JAA23455@qualcomm.com>; from "Don Bowen" at Feb 20, 95 9:13 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1584 Status: RO X-Status: > I have heard that in the midwest that 5 - 10 well cared for acres > will provide all the wood needs you will have. John Jeavons claims that an > intensive garden with a 6 month growing season need only be 1000 sq. ft. to > feed a family of 4 and he has 2/3 of that in grains. Again weather, pests, > and water will modify that. I researched this issue and I think that 10 - > 20 acres in the lower midwest could provide food, fuel, and income for a > frugal couple if you went in with a low debt load. > Hmm, I guess the heating wood needs also depends on home insulation and cubic feet of space to heat. In michigan the warm air act for tenents is 68 degrees, 3 ft. off the floor, in the midle of the room. 5-10 seems an awful lot for wood needs. It might be easier to purchase/barter for heating wood (whats the best kind of heating wood?). True though geography has everything to do with it. And garden space will also vary with fertility. We have a 40 X 50 garden but sandy soil, we used half and planted compactly, with 30 tomato plants 15 various pepper plants, along with turnips, carrots, and onions, we had enough for soups and sauces for canning. (family of 2) lasted all last winter. This winter we are just running out of soup base. Oh yeah our well went dry last year, man this constrained our watering and thus our yield. (food for thought). (luckily we had a neighbor who allowed us to tap off her water, or else we would have been in a real fix). Now we have a 100 ft well, (cost; $2200 for drilling and new pump (20 yrs old) ). Karl Henning From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Feb 20 17:03:48 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA02899; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 17:03:48 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA09085; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 17:09:48 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19838; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 21:54:28 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19816; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 16:54:26 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA10051 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 16:54:25 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 16:54:25 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: How much land is enough? To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199502201819.KAA28544@qualcomm.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1269 Status: RO X-Status: I should have said in my initial post that the area we're looking at is in the Appalachian region, probably southeastern West Virginia. Also, I too am a woodworker, and I am interested in a lot with enough wood for fuel and woodworking. My woodworking needs will be somewhat light - I'm not currently considering drawing significant income from woodworking, it's more of a hobby/obsession ;) My real income will be coming from contract computer programming and technical writing, both of which I currently do here in the Washington, DC area. Of course, if I *could* draw my income from woodworking alone ... The estimates of 5-10 acres that I'm hearing are somewhat lower than I expected - I've been bracing for something like 20-40 or so. We will most likely not be pasturing any animals, so we don't have that to consider. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Feb 20 13:18:30 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA20145; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 13:18:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA09422; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 13:24:15 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24589; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 18:19:58 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24565; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 13:19:56 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id KAA28544 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 10:19:55 -0800 Message-Id: <199502201819.KAA28544@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 10:19:35 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: How much land is enough? X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 3352 Status: RO X-Status: >Hmm, I guess the heating wood needs also depends on home insulation and >cubic feet of space to heat. In michigan the warm air act for tenents >is 68 degrees, 3 ft. off the floor, in the midle of the room. >5-10 seems an awful lot for wood needs. It might be easier to purchase/barter >for heating wood (whats the best kind of heating wood?). True though geography has everything to do with it. I was also considering income from the woodlot. I do woodworking and I worked on a sawmill while in high school. I was thinking in terms of taking few good hardwood trees a year and the culls for firewood. THe problem is that many woodlots have been logged the good trees removed. THe larger area takes into consideration that there would be fewer prime trees. >And garden space will also vary with fertility. We have a 40 X 50 garden >but sandy soil, we used half and planted compactly, with 30 tomato plants >15 various pepper plants, along with turnips, carrots, and onions, we had >enough for soups and sauces for canning. (family of 2) lasted all last winter. Prime bottom land that has not been farmed to death is a premium. You have to consider that yields early on will be low so you have to have more in cultivation. I do not like having to deal with animals so none of the plans included animal pasturage tho that could have been a mistake. >This winter we are just running out of soup base. Oh yeah our well went dry last >year, man this constrained our watering and thus our yield. (food for thought). >(luckily we had a neighbor who allowed us to tap off her water, or else we would >have been in a real fix). Now we have a 100 ft well, (cost; $2200 for drilling >and new pump (20 yrs old) ). Water is important. Land with any sort of year round stream will cost a premium as will land where there is a good well. Wells themselves are a problem. If others in the area are pumping heavily, the water table could drop and you will need a new well in a few years. Sometimes the underground strata will not allow water to move rapidly so the well volumne is limited. Some aquifers with rapid replinshment are polluted from ground water runoff. Remember, depth = $. Another job I had as a kid was on my fathers well drill. Another thing I neglected in my last post is that location should be an important consideration. If you plan to make a cash living off you land, you have to have customers. In something like a woodworking business, you can go to your customers but in the produce business, that cannot be a far distance. Computer consulting is a job that could be set up anywhere there is a phone line but there will still be times you have to go to a customer site. 50 miles is a 1 hour drive in good weather For a profitable produce business, one rule of thumb is to be no more than 50 miles from a city of 100 K population. At this distance the customers could come to you. In this day and age you need customers and cash. Cash will pay taxes and buy health and auto insurance. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Feb 20 13:32:42 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA26193; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 13:32:42 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA11298; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 13:38:26 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26853; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 18:22:56 GMT Received: from Eisner.DECUS.Org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26820; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 13:22:55 -0500 Received: from Eisner.DECUS.Org by Eisner.DECUS.Org (PMDF V4.2-12 #4291) id <01HN9VATDOE8000TJK@Eisner.DECUS.Org>; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 13:22:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 13:22:44 -0500 (EST) From: BOWLER@Eisner.DECUS.Org Subject: Re: How much land is enough? To: homestead@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HN9VATEHC2000TJK@Eisner.DECUS.Org> Organization: Digital Equipment Computer Users Society X-Vms-To: IN%"homestead@world.std.com" X-Vms-Cc: BOWLER Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 287 Status: RO X-Status: The rule of thumb I've heard is that you can get a cord an acre a year from a mature woodlot. If you have an estimate of how many cords a wood you'll need for heat, that'd be a good start. Thiat'll obviously depend alot on climate, insullation etc as previous folks have noted. Bruce From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 21 09:02:11 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA01914; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:02:11 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA29028; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:08:11 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28959; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:52:55 GMT Received: from wvnvm.wvnet.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28923; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 08:52:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199502211352.AA28923@world.std.com> Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1344; Tue, 21 Feb 95 08:52:03 EST Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (NJE origin U6ED4@WVNVM) by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2042; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 08:52:03 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 08:52:03 EST From: "bonni brooks" To: Subject: Re: How much land is enough? In-Reply-To: Message of 02/20/95 at 11:48:35 from aevans@cais.cais.com Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 534 Status: RO X-Status: I know most people have been recommending 5-10 acres, but I'd recommend 10-15 if you can afford it, just to make sure you'll be able to provide all your heating wood without incredibly careful management. (Careful management is always good.) bonni IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 21 19:01:52 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA02756; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 19:01:52 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA01727; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 18:39:32 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12741; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 23:25:05 GMT Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12679; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 18:25:03 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA209209102; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 18:25:02 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 18:25:02 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950221182500_28309029@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: How much land is enough? Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 293 Status: RO X-Status: Keep in mind, too, that such things as garden yields can be upped by judicious use of locally adapted varieties. Check with organizations like Seed Savers Exchange and Southern Exposure Seed Exchange. You should be able to find varieties that will do espscially well in that region. Larry From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 21 19:32:34 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16870; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 19:32:34 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA09705; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 19:38:27 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20159; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 00:23:00 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20102; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 19:22:56 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id TAA05777 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 19:22:50 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA21745; Tue Feb 21 19:21:59 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9502220021.AA21745@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Self sufficient To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 19:21:58 EST In-Reply-To: <199502212253.OAA14134@qualcomm.com>; from "Don Bowen" at Feb 21, 95 2:53 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 648 Status: RO X-Status: > I think we should redefine what we mean or at least expand the definition. > What some call homesteading, I call self sufficient. You can become much > more self sufficient no matter where you live. Buying more food in bulk > will free you from some of those trips to the store. Learning to cook from > raw materials will give you more chance to start with wholesome foods. > Learning to fix you own car can show you that it is not necessary to buy a > new one every so often. I agree with Don, in this society it's really hard to cut the chains that addict you to the easy way out. I think it's breaking bad habits and mindsets. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 21 20:09:23 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05862; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:09:23 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA27929; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 18:09:17 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12951; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 22:53:29 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12930; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 17:53:27 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id OAA14134 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:53:25 -0800 Message-Id: <199502212253.OAA14134@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:53:06 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Self sufficient X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1263 Status: RO X-Status: Homesteading as we seem to have defined it is one of those things I have been watching for several years. The idea of moving to the country and fighting for our substance from the very soil under our feet has real appeal. Clean air, wholesome food and complete control of our destiny offer an attractive alternative to the daily commute over crowded, polluted roads and factory produced foods. The reality though, is far from the ideal. Kids want shoes, cars want fuel pumps, counties want tax payments. I think we should redefine what we mean or at least expand the definition. What some call homesteading, I call self sufficient. You can become much more self sufficient no matter where you live. Buying more food in bulk will free you from some of those trips to the store. Learning to cook from raw materials will give you more chance to start with wholesome foods. Learning to fix you own car can show you that it is not necessary to buy a new one every so often. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 21 20:34:16 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18236; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:34:16 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA17809; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:39:52 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04827; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 01:26:18 GMT Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04803; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:26:16 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA066206375; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:26:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:26:15 -0500 From: Sandpeep@aol.com Message-Id: <950221194246_28393038@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: How much land is enough? Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 6710 Status: RO X-Status: Andrew, >I should have said in my initial post that the area we're looking at is >in the Appalachian region, probably southeastern West Virginia. Nice area, and lovely people (they also are the exception that crime goes up in relation to the unemployment level). But some things you may want to consider; Although my info is about 8 yrs old (transfered out of the state in '87) ther are some items I was not aware of when I moved into the state in '83. Back then, the rest of the country was "booming" under Ronald "Ray-guns", but WV was still hurting (locals admit that the state is the first to feel a recession/depression, and the last to recover). When the mines are going full blast, there's plenty of money around that part of the state, but times get pretty tough. You may want to check with your insurance agent, when the mines are laying off, there used to be a rash of cars suffering from "spontaneous combustion". As a result, comprehensive vehicle coverage was either very expensive, or non-existant in coal country. Also don't know if you have kids - what are they going to do when they grow up? FYI, WV has the highest "per capita" of native sons in the military - it's either the armed forces, or work in the mines. An up side to the state was the low property tax (a 3200 sq ft. place on 2/3 of an acre in one of the nicest areas in Huntington (2nd biggest city in the state) was only $295 a year (I was paying that per month for half the house in Upstate NY last year)). The down side to low taxes was that roads in that area of the state can kill you - if you don't hit a pot hole and fly off the edge of a mountain, a coal truck will push you off. Depending on where you are in Southeast WV, you may be in the "fallout" area of the Kanawa Valley. - The Kanawa River (which flows through the capital of Charleston (which is the largest city at about 55,000?), at one time was the center of production of 80% of the hazardous chemicals made in this country. Remember Bophal India? The only place where they made the same chemical in this country was the Union Carbide agricultural products plant in Institute, WV, just down the river from Charleston. Things have improved greatly over the last 40 years, but had some folks in some of my safety courses I was taking relay two interesting stories (1) skin cancer scars are referred to as "hash marks" by the oldtimers in the plants (2) back in the '60's some folks claimed they could smell the plants on the Kanawha River all the way in Beckley (not likely, but....). Be that as it may, take a ride either on the river, or down rt 60 through the valley and count the chemical plants (FMC, Union Carbide, Dupont, Monsanto, Dow, Fike Chemical (Fike does all the "nasty" jobs the national companies don't want to touch). Reason why all these plants are on the Kanawha dates back before petro-chemicals, when early "plastics" were made based on chlorine. Chlorine is made out of salt and energy - turns out WV sits on one of the largest brime deposits in the world, along with hundreds of years worth of coal. The Kanawha was the 1st flat piece of land to both the coal fields and brime deposits (not to mention that the finished products could be moved by water, once locks were installed on the Kanawha and Ohio in the '30's). As one plant made chlorine as a finished product, the next plant used it as raw material, the third plant used the 2nd's finished product as feedstock, etc, etc. and as a result, plants just grew along the river. (Even today, Union Carbide requests to move (on average) two NEW chemicals by barge per month - when asked what are the chemicals used for, the std answer is "we don't know, but someone will find a use for them". =:-o >Also, I too am a woodworker, and I am interested in a lot with enough wood >for fuel and woodworking. My woodworking needs will be somewhat light - >I'm not currently considering drawing significant income from woodworking, >it's more of a hobby/obsession ;) I've heard that somewhere between 65 & 85% of the state is covered with hardwood forests, at one time furniture factories were booming, and high schools in Huntington were responsible for turning out skilled workers for same - all the factories are gone, but the high schools still have the same equipment they used for their vo-tech program (ever see a band saw with a 48" throat?). All this old (and excellent) equipment is available via adult ed for about $25-30 per semester. >My real income will be coming from >contract computer programming and technical writing, both of which I >currently do here in the Washington, DC area. Of course, if I *could* >draw my income from woodworking alone ... Wood think lots of competion. (pun intended :-) >The estimates of 5-10 acres that I'm hearing are somewhat lower than I >expected - I've been bracing for something like 20-40 or so. We will >most likely not be pasturing any animals, so we don't have that to consider. Sounds low to me too - if in the South East part of the state, expect the land to be up and down , and in that case more land wouldn't be a bad idea (woodlot excepted). If you did buy livestock for that area, be sure to get the kind that have shorter legs on one side so they can stand up straight on the hillside ;-) You didn't ask, but would suggest the area between Huntington and Charleston (EXCEPT NITRO- you'll know why when you smell it passing through), or north of the Huntington/Charleston area (Point Pleasant?) Land is a lot flatter the closer you are to the Ohio Valley, (if you're planning farming) and the winters aren't as cold as you are only at 550 ft above sea level (vs the mountains). I realize that there are public colleges in both Bluefield and Beckley, but both Charleston and Huntington have much larger schools with more choices (as an example, Marshall U in Huntington is made up of 8 colleges (including med school), that offer 96 different majors. Instate tutition costs me $125 to $144 Per COURSE (not semester unit) when working on my master's. (undergrad costs were less).) Also Huntington is big enough to find what you are looking for, while too small to get lost in (a planned city, laid out on a grid, not to the water's edge like most river towns). It once had a population of 82,000, now maybe 50,000 ( parking is never a problem downtown). One thing to keep in mind: No matter where you buy in the state, IF you decide it's not for you, selling the place will be tough (how many other states are loosing population? The further out and/or more remote you are, the harder the sell. (The nice place I mentioned in town took two years to sell - at a loss.) Frank S. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 21 21:18:57 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05308; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:18:57 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA25419; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:24:47 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10120; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 02:15:43 GMT Received: from tntech.edu (gemini.tntech.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10068; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:15:38 -0500 Received: from tntech.edu by tntech.edu (PMDF V4.3-10 #7186) id <01HNBNRWGYEOD41B5U@tntech.edu>; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:17:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:17:32 -0600 (CST) From: PAT LENZO Subject: Let there be light! To: homestead@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HNBNRWLIDED41B5U@tntech.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"homestead@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 734 Status: RO X-Status: Wonder if any of you can suggest a lantern for me. I'm looking for a rechargeable fairly large lantern of some sort. My barn has no electricity and I need light during lambing season. Sears used to sell a good one, but no longer does. A fairly strong glow, not a spotlight. Ineed to be able to set it down to assist in lambing if necessary, and it needs to be fairly bright for my old eyes. I have a little Coleman 2-floursent thing, but it's not bright enough. The mantle of the Coleman's break too easily since I have to take it to work with me and it rattles around in the car, plus too easy to bump and break. Same with the old fashioned kerosene lantern, I'm afraid of fire. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Pat From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 21 21:33:41 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA12229; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:33:41 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA26754; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:39:41 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22705; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 02:36:08 GMT Received: from tyrell.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22694; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:36:06 -0500 Received: by tyrell.net id AA01056 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for homestead@world.std.com); Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:33:22 -0600 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:33:21 -0600 (CST) From: Willie Sullivan To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: solar info Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 96 Status: RO X-Status: A Does anyone know where on the Internet I can find information on solar energy? Thanks. Willie From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 21 21:49:26 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA19281; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:49:26 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA28876; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:55:11 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00018; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 02:49:20 GMT Received: from bos1a.delphi.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29976; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:49:15 -0500 Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.3-9 #7804) id <01HNBRBTYCHO95OYUX@delphi.com>; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:49:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:49:00 -0500 (EST) From: PHIDUN@delphi.com Subject: How much land is enough? To: homestead@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HNBRBTYCHQ95OYUX@delphi.com> X-Vms-To: INTERNET"homestead@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 810 Status: RO X-Status: Andrew, I don't have an answer to your land question, but I also am interested in the same question. I bought 17 1/2 acres or rocky NE PA wooded and hilly land. I have three level shelfs that are really quite beautiful. I have made a shale covered road to the second shelf and want to build a cabin to begin with. My concern is the rocky land. I don't know if it is possible to really create a good garden. Also, my aesthetic sense makes me do dumb things like choosing a homesite a little removed from the planned orchard and garden. I hate the thought of cutting trees and want them as a shield. I also hate the thought of a neighbor seeing my house even with binoculars! I know this is rambling, but any suggestions? Can this amount of rocky and hilly land support much realistically? phidun@delphi.com From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 21 22:33:55 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA07707; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 22:33:55 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA03774; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 22:39:40 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21040; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 03:24:23 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21017; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 22:24:21 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA13977 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 22:24:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 22:24:19 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: How much land is enough? To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <950221194246_28393038@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1517 Status: RO X-Status: Frank - Thanks for the reality-check on West Virginia - but I think we're talking about two different parts of the state. The real bad industrial stuff is more southcentral to southwest, not southeast - Huntington is on the extreme southwest border of the state, and the Kanawha flows from Charleston in the center toward it. Where we're looking is in Pocahontas and Greenbrier Counties primarily, on the extreme southeast side of the state. Your caveats about resale, poverty, etc. still apply in full force there, however. We visited some longtime residents of Pocahontas Co. a few months ago, and they led us to believe that mining was not as much of a problem in their area - is this true? We certainly didn't see the same evidence of mining that we saw in other parts of the state. Also, Sen. Byrd has seen to it that the roads in W. Va. are in top condition -noticably better in fact than those in Maryland, Virginia, and Pennsylvania. This is probably new since you were there, and it probably won't stay that way for long, with the pork-trimming in Congress. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 00:51:38 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05085; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 00:51:38 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA19953; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 00:54:14 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17714; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 05:47:45 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17704; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 00:47:44 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id AAA22325 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 00:47:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 00:47:41 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Fire Up Your Web Browsers! To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1311 Status: RO X-Status: Hi y'all - Your list admin here - I've just finished putting the rough draft of the Homestead List Home Page online. There isn't a whole lot of stuff in there yet. Take a look and tell me what you think of the structure, etc. I thought long and hard about how to lay it out, and I think the cross-index format works pretty well. Though I have some more things waiting to be put in, there are whole areas where I'm missing content. If you have a good book or URL or whatever to add, please share it. For books, it would help alot if you could get the bibliographical info for me (take a look at Print Media in one of the subject categories to see an example of what I need). I'm hoping this will grow into a valuable community resource - the more you contribute, the better it will get. Now, for the URL: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homestead/homestd.html Enjoy! +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 06:17:09 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03458; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:17:09 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA14193; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:23:07 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03200; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:22:05 GMT Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03191; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:22:04 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA034322122; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:22:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:22:02 -0500 From: Sandpeep@aol.com Message-Id: <950222062202_28843526@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: solar catalogs Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 370 Status: RO X-Status: Just got my copy of the Sunelco catalog in the mail this afternoon - list price is $5, but called their toll free number, (800) 338-6844, and they sent the 122 page planning guide and product catalog for free (not exactly sure if it's what you are looking for, besides solar panels, they carry fridges, pumps, low watt bulbs, etc. don't know what else you had in mind. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 08:47:00 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com ([192.74.137.10]) by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA00197; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 08:47:00 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA24070; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 08:38:14 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19758; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:23:56 GMT Received: from proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19675; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 08:23:47 -0500 Received: from [128.183.28.116] by proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Wed, 22 Feb 1995 08:23:52 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 08:23:56 -0500 To: homestead@world.std.com From: DOSGOOD@PROXIMA.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Dean Osgood) Subject: Re: Let there be light! Message-Id: <1418681064-31206457@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov> Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 404 Status: RO X-Status: >Wonder if any of you can suggest a lantern for me. I'm looking for a >rechargeable fairly large lantern of some sort. My barn has no electricity and Get a headlamp, of the sort sold for cave exploring. Some are also used for 'coon huntin'. You can find these for sale in catalog's such as Cabellas. The ones sold for hunting also have a red filter, which is less upsetting to the animals. Dean Osgood From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 10:04:25 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA22556; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 10:04:25 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA07949; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 10:09:33 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05059; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 15:05:51 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05036; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 10:05:48 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA12562; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 07:05:46 -0800 Message-Id: <199502221505.HAA12562@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 07:05:25 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: interesting URLs Cc: donb@cts.com X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1287 Status: RO X-Status: A Here are some good URLs to add to the homepage. A couple more that I do not have addresses for are the university of Flordia ag page, the university of Arizona ag page, University of Missouri Gopher site for home gardens, UC Davis gopher site for 4H data. http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html Don't Panic Eat Organic http://unlvm.unl.edu/agecon.htm UNL Ag Econ WWW Home Page http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jlks/bee.html Beekeeping Home Page http://www.btw.com/urls/toc.html BTW Home and Garden URL's http://www.well.com/Conferences/agri/ Agriculture conference http://www.compumedia.com/~gsand/ New construction http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~hulse/index.html antique mechanics homepage http://ledger.co.forsyth.nc.us antique tractor home page There are more but most can be reached through the above links. As soon as the company sets up home pages for the employees, I have one ready to go. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 11:19:33 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA28014; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:19:33 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04141; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:24:16 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19146; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 16:02:22 GMT Received: from wvnvm.wvnet.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19107; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:02:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199502221602.AA19107@world.std.com> Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2199; Wed, 22 Feb 95 11:01:22 EST Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (NJE origin U6ED4@WVNVM) by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5669; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:01:06 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:01:04 EST From: "bonni brooks" To: Subject: Re: Self sufficient In-Reply-To: Message of 02/21/95 at 14:53:06 from c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2045 Status: RO X-Status: On 02/21/95 at 14:53:06 c_dbowen@qualcomm.com said: > Homesteading as we seem to have defined it is one of those things I have >been watching for several years. The idea of moving to the country and >fighting for our substance from the very soil under our feet has real >appeal. Clean air, wholesome food and complete control of our destiny offer ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Complete control of our destiny? Ain't no such thing! The wholesome food part depends upon lots of things we can't control - mostly the weather. For instance, last summer I had a dozen tomato plants and got a half dozen tomatoes, because fall came early and nearly all the tomatoes never ripened. There are also rats with hooves (most people call them deer) who share your opinion on the tastiness of fresh garden vegetables. There are plant diseases and plant pests. If you keep livestock, you can do your best but a disease could wipe out most of animals, or your favorite ewe could die lambing, or your chickens could turn out to be egg-eaters, or the inevitable foxes and weasels will get to the meat cockerels before you do, or a stray dog could kill your sheep or goats or chickens. OOH, I HATE DOGS!!! (Don't get me started on dogs!) Oh yeah, and hawks just love fresh chicken too. If you have hawks and don't cover the chicken run, you've just built a nice hawk feeder. Yes, hawks can and do fly off with chickens in their grubby talons. Don't forget the tax man. Fail to pay your taxes, and the county can sell your land out from under you for the cost of the back taxes. Complete control of your destiny? Sure, if the sun shines, the weather cooperates, the pests, predators and diseases stay away...... :-> bonni IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 11:34:39 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05672; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:34:39 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA10853; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:39:02 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08688; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 16:32:10 GMT Received: from firewall.meaddata.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08503; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:32:00 -0500 Received: from meaddata.com ([138.12.96.71]) by firewall.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09003; Wed, 22 Feb 95 11:33:58 EST Received: from moe.meaddata.com by meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25020; Wed, 22 Feb 95 11:32:16 EST Received: by moe.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05313; Wed, 22 Feb 95 11:32:14 EST Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 11:32:14 EST From: barb@meaddata.com (Barb Bruns) Message-Id: <9502221632.AA05313@moe.meaddata.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Self sufficient Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 956 Status: RO X-Status: On 02/21/95 at 14:53:06 c_dbowen@qualcomm.com said: > I think we should redefine what we mean or at least expand the definition. > What some call homesteading, I call self sufficient. You can become much > more self sufficient no matter where you live. Yes, it's possible that we are not all talking about the same thing. I agree that a degree of self-sufficiency (and each must choose what that degree is for them) is a requirement for homesteading. Your definition suggests self-sufficiency as an end in itself, which it is for many people. But for me, self-sufficiency is the means to an end. When I go outside on a beautiful morning to feed the dogs or water the garden, I want to STAY there, not spend my life in a cube. I hope to get there some day. Barb Technical Communications barb@meaddata.com I don't speak for LEXIS-NEXIS. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 11:50:46 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA14622; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:50:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA13258; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:55:05 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13030; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 16:38:01 GMT Received: from wvnvm.wvnet.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12786; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:37:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199502221637.AA12786@world.std.com> Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2605; Wed, 22 Feb 95 11:36:34 EST Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (NJE origin U6ED4@WVNVM) by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7209; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:36:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:36:27 EST From: "bonni brooks" To: Subject: Re: How much land is enough? In-Reply-To: Message of 02/21/95 at 20:26:15 from Sandpeep@aol.com Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 4844 Status: RO X-Status: On 02/21/95 at 20:26:15 Sandpeep@aol.com said: >Nice area, and lovely people (they also are the exception that crime goes up You might also want to consider north central WV. The economy is better here, and there's good land available. They're also reclaiming the strip mines (slowly but surely), and that land, which can be used for livestock and woodlands, is *cheap*. > When the >mines are going full blast, there's plenty of money around that part of the >state, but times get pretty tough. You may want to check with your insurance The mines are *not* going full blast. Mines everywhere are closing down. >An up side to the state was >the low property tax (a 3200 sq ft. place on 2/3 of an acre in one of the >nicest areas in Huntington (2nd biggest city in the state) was only $295 a >year (I was paying that per month for half the house in Upstate NY last >year)). The down side to low taxes was that roads in that area of the state >can kill you - if you don't hit a pot hole and fly off the edge of a >mountain, a coal truck will push you off. Property taxes went way up recently. Ours doubled last year. We were paying $300 or so for a big four-bedroom house on 2.5 acres (before we bought the additional 41.5 acres). The roads - well, just make sure your vehicle has good shocks! I like to joke that the major WV export is chuck-holes: we sell them to PennDOT. :;-> But the coal truck drivers are good ol' boys - they can't help it if their rigs are tippy and hard to control. >Remember Bophal India? The only place where they made the same chemical in >this country was the Union Carbide agricultural products plant in Institute, >WV, just down the river from Charleston. Things have improved greatly over >the last 40 years, but had some folks in some of my safety courses I was This is still true. A friend of mine works down there. He can see the emergency sirens from his office window. Scary. Don't live anywhere near Nitro. I don't know how people stand to live there. All you have to do to find it is get on the highway in Charleston and head toward Huntington - you don't even need to open the windows, you'll find it! You never forget the smell... >I've heard that somewhere between 65 & 85% of the state is covered with >hardwood forests, at one time furniture factories were booming, and high Yes, but they are second growth. The state was clearcut. There are some good trees around now, but large portions of the state's forests are full of seedy black locusts - good firewood, by the way, and excellent fenceposts, but they have a tendency to shoot up and fall prey to the locust borer and die. Oaks, maples and hickories are coming back, along with other assorted trees. My in-laws' woods are about 80 years old now, and coming along nicely, but there are lots of widder-makers in the form of dead black locusts that my father-in-law is weeding out. >Sounds low to me too - if in the South East part of the state, expect the >land to be up and down , and in that case more land wouldn't be a bad idea >(woodlot excepted). If you did buy livestock for that area, be sure to get >the kind that have shorter legs on one side so they can stand up straight on >the hillside ;-) Heh heh. Yeah, I hope this guy isn't trying to find *flat* land! Ain't no such critter! What flat land there is, is grabbed by the counties for airports. Our garden is terraced, and we have to double-dig it by hand because it's too steep for a tiller. (We've only got one good-sized dent on our van - where it was viciously attacked by a runaway Troy-Bilt Horse!) >colleges (including med school), that offer 96 different majors. Instate >tutition costs me $125 to $144 Per COURSE (not semester unit) when working on >my master's. (undergrad costs were less).) Also Huntington is big enough to A word to the wise here - tuition has been sky-rocketing the last five years. I don't know what it's like at the moment, but I do know that tuition has gotten outrageous. >One thing to keep in mind: No matter where you buy in the state, IF you >decide it's not for you, selling the place will be tough (how many other >states are loosing population? The further out and/or more remote you are, >the harder the sell. (The nice place I mentioned in town took two years to >sell - at a loss.) Very true. Even in the better areas, it's hard to move property. On the other hand, one upside to the state is the politics. It's highly entertaining. They really ought to take that dog and pony show on the road.... bonni IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 09:19:27 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA02257; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:19:27 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA27870; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:07:59 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14710; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 14:01:08 GMT Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14684; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:01:07 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA246091665; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:01:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:01:05 -0500 From: Tstahl@aol.com Message-Id: <950222090105_28905608@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Fire Up Your Web Browsers! Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 93 Status: RO X-Status: If you do want info on homeschooling--I would have things to add also,just let me know.Terri From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 09:48:48 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15309; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:48:48 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA05971; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:53:47 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22622; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 14:49:15 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22590; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:49:13 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA18029 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:49:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:49:12 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Fire Up Your Web Browsers! To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <950222090105_28905608@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 789 Status: RO X-Status: Don't be shy - if you have something to add to the page, bring it on! Send to my mail address (aevans@cais.com) instead of to the group, so we don't flood the group (it's OK to flood my account ;) ). Cheers, Andy On Wed, 22 Feb 1995 Tstahl@aol.com wrote: > If you do want info on homeschooling--I would have things to add also,just > let me know.Terri > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 10:04:25 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA22556; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 10:04:25 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA07949; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 10:09:33 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05059; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 15:05:51 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05036; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 10:05:48 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA12562; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 07:05:46 -0800 Message-Id: <199502221505.HAA12562@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 07:05:25 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: interesting URLs Cc: donb@cts.com X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1287 Status: RO X-Status: Here are some good URLs to add to the homepage. A couple more that I do not have addresses for are the university of Flordia ag page, the university of Arizona ag page, University of Missouri Gopher site for home gardens, UC Davis gopher site for 4H data. http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html Don't Panic Eat Organic http://unlvm.unl.edu/agecon.htm UNL Ag Econ WWW Home Page http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jlks/bee.html Beekeeping Home Page http://www.btw.com/urls/toc.html BTW Home and Garden URL's http://www.well.com/Conferences/agri/ Agriculture conference http://www.compumedia.com/~gsand/ New construction http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~hulse/index.html antique mechanics homepage http://ledger.co.forsyth.nc.us antique tractor home page There are more but most can be reached through the above links. As soon as the company sets up home pages for the employees, I have one ready to go. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From Cyronwode@aol.com Wed Feb 22 12:34:09 1995 Return-Path: Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA10345; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:34:09 -0500 Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id MAA18115 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:35:24 -0500 From: Cyronwode@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef) id AA21029; Wed, 22 Feb 95 12:29:15 EST Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA090654670; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:37:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:37:50 -0500 Message-Id: <950222123750_29071069@aol.com> To: sust_ag-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: ants for larry london content-length: 838 Status: RO X-Status: DA Larry London asked: >Why keep the ants away from the mealybugs? Don't they eat them? >What plants do ants harm? Ants "farm" various insects, most notably aphids and scale insects on trees and shrubs. They do this to get their "honeydew," partially metabolized sugar-water the insects excrete for the ants to drink. Why do they do this for the ants? Because the ants carry the little wingless critters around and clean up after them and keep them on fresh pasture, like cows. In fact, the whole thing is called "herding" and when the ants press the aphids to get them to excrete the sugar-water that is called "milking. It's a big old metaphor -- and the trees and shrubs get drunk dry by the thousands of tended aphids that the ants carry onto them. Hope this explains why folks put sticky tnglefoot on trees to keep the ants away. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 12:35:09 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA10998; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:35:09 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA20507; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:39:46 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18589; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 17:30:20 GMT Received: from proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18563; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:30:18 -0500 Received: from [128.183.28.116] by proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:30:23 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:30:27 -0500 To: homestead@world.std.com From: DOSGOOD@PROXIMA.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Dean Osgood) Subject: Re: How much land is enough? Message-Id: <1418666273-32095956@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov> Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1380 Status: RO X-Status: >Charleston in the center toward it. Where we're looking is in Pocahontas >and Greenbrier Counties primarily, on the extreme southeast side of the >state. Your caveats about resale, poverty, etc. still apply in full >force there, however. We visited some longtime residents of Pocahontas >Co. a few months ago, and they led us to believe that mining was not as >much of a problem in their area - is this true? We certainly didn't see >the same evidence of mining that we saw in other parts of the state. I have a farm in Summers county, SE WV. Don't get to spend enough time there right now, too busy trying to get it together for an early retirement to the farm. The only mineing in those areas that I know of is for limestone and some speciaty sand for glass makeing. The area in general is impoverished, and unless you are bringing your job with you, you are going to be out of luck. Look at the phone service, I think that if you pick the right area you can get a T-1 line, and in bad wether you might need a lot of bandwidth. Area gets a lot of snow every so often. I just joined up so I missed the origional post, but guessing from context, I would say that you want the following, 10 acres wood lot for heat, 10 acres wood lot for timber, 20 acres for rocks, 2.5 acres for septic, 2.5 acres for buildings, etc., etc....... Dean Osgood dosgood@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 13:04:36 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA00321; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:04:36 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA24864; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:09:13 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05056; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 17:55:28 GMT Received: from proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04980; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:55:22 -0500 Received: from [128.183.28.116] by proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:55:20 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:55:24 -0500 To: homestead@world.std.com From: DOSGOOD@PROXIMA.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Dean Osgood) Subject: Re: How much land is enough? Message-Id: <1418664776-32186035@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov> Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 476 Status: RO X-Status: bonni brooks said >The roads - well, just make sure your vehicle has good shocks! I like to >joke that the major WV export is chuck-holes: we sell them to PennDOT. :;-> In the southern part of the state they are called "Jay holes" (sure do Rock-a-feller) >On the other hand, one upside to the state is the politics. It's highly >entertaining. They really ought to take that dog and pony show on the >road.... Heck, just watch Fiddlin' Bob on C-Span sometime. Dean Osgood From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 13:22:41 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA11886; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:22:41 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA24900; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:09:19 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03650; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 17:53:31 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03590; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:53:26 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id JAA08499 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:53:17 -0800 Message-Id: <199502221753.JAA08499@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:52:58 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Self sufficient X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1158 Status: RO X-Status: >Your definition suggests self-sufficiency as an end in itself, which it >is for many people. But for me, self-sufficiency is the means to an end. >When I go outside on a beautiful morning to feed the dogs or water the >garden, I want to STAY there, not spend my life in a cube. That is also my goal and I have achieved it at times. I do like what I do to earn a living and that requires a certain amount of time on my but in front of a screen. Self suffiency reduces the amount of time needed in front of the screen. Another thing it has done is allowed my wife to stay home and take care of the kids. Now that they are mostly gone, it allows her to return to school. Money not spent on new cars and repairs now goes to her schooling. I may never be able to make my living entirely by woodworking and farming but those things do ease the living I do make. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 13:22:57 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA12053; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:22:57 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA24931; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:09:27 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11396; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:05:16 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11334; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:05:11 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id KAA11239 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 10:05:08 -0800 Message-Id: <199502221805.KAA11239@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 10:04:47 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Self sufficient X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2184 Status: RO X-Status: >On 02/21/95 at 14:53:06 c_dbowen@qualcomm.com said: >> Homesteading as we seem to have defined it is one of those things I have >>been watching for several years. The idea of moving to the country and >>fighting for our substance from the very soil under our feet has real >>appeal. Clean air, wholesome food and complete control of our destiny offer > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Complete control of our destiny? Ain't no such thing! What I really wrote is: Clean air, wholesome food and complete control of our destiny offer an attractive alternative to the daily commute over crowded, polluted roads and factory produced foods. The reality though, is far from the ideal. Kids want shoes, cars want fuel pumps, counties want tax payments. I grew up on a farm and watched the years corn profits felled by a 20 min. hail storm. I have watched crops stop growing during a drought. Foxes get the hens, chinch bugs eat the wheat, rain washes out the soy beans, a little rock breaks the plow point. No one in this world that wants to live past the next few seconds has complete control. You can fight for a little bit of control but it is a fight that you can be ahead of for very brief periods. The secret is that you always fight. As for dogs, those %#$&%$&@%$#% dogs from the neighbor dug up my potatoes. THey never seem to be there when I can grab the .22. The rabbits are not so lucky. >Complete control of your destiny? Sure, if the sun shines, the weather >cooperates, the pests, predators and diseases stay away...... One thing that modern life insulates from is these risks. Very few people understand how thin a thread holds us up. Those of us that try to be self sufficent understand these risks all to well and are always doing our best strengthen that thread and to provide additional strings. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 18:10:07 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15465; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:10:07 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA14455; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:10:59 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21001; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 23:03:27 GMT Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20964; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:03:25 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA22542 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 15:03:24 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com, homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Self sufficient Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 15:20:38 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199502221602.AA19107@world.std.com> Lines: 13 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 518 Status: RO X-Status: > > Complete control of our destiny? Ain't no such thing! > > Complete control of your destiny? Sure, if the sun shines, the weather > cooperates, the pests, predators and diseases stay away...... Hey Bonni, you forgot about the well running dry, the pump breaking, someone getting sick, the soil losing fertility, aches and pains, the family refusing to eat another leek, the root cellar leaking, and about a thousand other things. Aren't you a little over optimistic . Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 18:37:26 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA02336; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:37:26 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA18643; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:39:51 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16698; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 23:38:19 GMT Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16676; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:38:17 -0500 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA237276296; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:38:16 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:38:16 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950222183815_29402084@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Self sufficient Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 474 Status: RO X-Status: I think what most of are doing is winnowing the grain from the chaff. There's no one I know that's into homesteading/self-reliance that wants to dump ALL of civilization. I like things like computers and antibiotics and msuic on CD. On the other hand, I like the freedom to grow and eat what I like, and KNOW what goes into it. So what I'm doing is living in a place where I can take what I like of civilization, but not be forced to live with the downside of it. Larry From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 18:39:08 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03511; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:39:08 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA18600; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:39:41 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16527; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 23:38:06 GMT Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16490; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:38:04 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA137666284; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:38:04 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:38:04 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950222183802_29401855@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: How much rocky land is enough? Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 458 Status: RO X-Status: Down here in sounth central KY we have bedrock popping up through the top soil in places, and lotsa rocks all over. But just about everything grow here. For a garden, you need to fiddle wiht the soil some, add plenty of peat and humus and sand as needed to make a good plot. Root crops can be a hassle unless you create a deep bed for them. Really about all you can do is try. Talk to locals who have big gardens, and maybe the county extension might help. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 20:20:20 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03350; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 20:20:20 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA01824; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 20:20:55 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13919; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 01:12:57 GMT Received: from coyote.rain.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13902; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 20:12:55 -0500 Received: by coyote.rain.org(8.6.9/RAIN-1.0) with id RAA01800 for on Wed, 22 Feb 1995 17:08:41 -0800 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 17:08:39 -0800 (PST) From: Sal Schettino To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Self sufficient In-Reply-To: <199502221602.AA19107@world.std.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 4784 Status: RO X-Status: Its not all bad! Every year your garden is getting better and better than the next because you have been building a great soil. The trees are getting bigger and bigger and you getting more and more fruit. Your heard of livestock should have grown. You should have extra males to eat and females to help build you stock. you may have learn a little more each year and it may get easyer. I let the hawks and owls take a chicken every once in a while but they also eat squriles and gophers and even rats and I like seeing them around. Red tail hawk are not to bad but those darn copper hawks are snikky but they also take out those birds that have been eating the peaches. I love hearing the hoot owls and barn and horn owl are nice to have around. Yeah old horn owl may eat one of the cats or a chicken but just think a barn owl has to eat a rat or gopher every night a pair two and if they have babys add 5 or so mice for each baby. thats 7 days a week. Yeah I seen a hawk pick up a chicken and fly off just clearing the trees with such a heavy load but count my self luck to be there to see it. Some thing money can't buy. and thats good because money is hard to come by. Where else can you start with just a seed and get a crop. from one plant can come 1000s and 1000s. nobody know how many eggs are in a chicken and from a trio you could have a big flock in no time. I bought 1 Macadamia nut and planted it and took cuttings and not have about 70. so from one tree can come 1000s. I have been to Cal. Rare Fruit Growers meeting and gotten sion wood from so many apples,plums,pears,etc. free (graft wood exchanges). Some plants you can just stick a branch in the grown and walla next year you have a tree. Sure there are floods and droughts and freezes but if you have the land in good health its one of the few places where you can borrow seed money and your off again. I'm a cheerleader for homesteading and feel living off the earth is a honest way to go. Well got to go put the chickens up tonight so they don't get eat. Chickens out side at least roost its those darn ducks that get eat easy i have to lock them up at night. it takes time to put them away at night but you may still have them in the morning. ever notice how pale a store bought egg looks the orange yoke is yellow and the taste is gone. I wounder is many people ever get to taste a range feed real egg or chicken.Or a vineripen anything. On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, bonni brooks wrote: > On 02/21/95 at 14:53:06 c_dbowen@qualcomm.com said: > > Homesteading as we seem to have defined it is one of those things I have > >been watching for several years. The idea of moving to the country and > >fighting for our substance from the very soil under our feet has real > >appeal. Clean air, wholesome food and complete control of our destiny offer > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Complete control of our destiny? Ain't no such thing! > > The wholesome food part depends upon lots of things we can't control - > mostly the weather. For instance, last summer I had a dozen tomato > plants and got a half dozen tomatoes, because fall came early and nearly > all the tomatoes never ripened. There are also rats with hooves (most > people call them deer) who share your opinion on the tastiness of fresh > garden vegetables. There are plant diseases and plant pests. > > If you keep livestock, you can do your best but a disease could wipe > out most of animals, or your favorite ewe could die lambing, or your > chickens could turn out to be egg-eaters, or the inevitable foxes and > weasels will get to the meat cockerels before you do, or a stray dog > could kill your sheep or goats or chickens. OOH, I HATE DOGS!!! (Don't > get me started on dogs!) Oh yeah, and hawks just love fresh chicken too. > If you have hawks and don't cover the chicken run, you've just built a > nice hawk feeder. Yes, hawks can and do fly off with chickens in their > grubby talons. > > Don't forget the tax man. Fail to pay your taxes, and the county can > sell your land out from under you for the cost of the back taxes. > > Complete control of your destiny? Sure, if the sun shines, the weather > cooperates, the pests, predators and diseases stay away...... > > :-> > bonni > > IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak > ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine > NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic > | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." > Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org or check out my homepage: http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 20:20:20 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03350; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 20:20:20 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA01824; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 20:20:55 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13919; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 01:12:57 GMT Received: from coyote.rain.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13902; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 20:12:55 -0500 Received: by coyote.rain.org(8.6.9/RAIN-1.0) with id RAA01800 for on Wed, 22 Feb 1995 17:08:41 -0800 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 17:08:39 -0800 (PST) From: Sal Schettino To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Self sufficient In-Reply-To: <199502221602.AA19107@world.std.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 4784 Status: RO X-Status: DA Its not all bad! Every year your garden is getting better and better than the next because you have been building a great soil. The trees are getting bigger and bigger and you getting more and more fruit. Your heard of livestock should have grown. You should have extra males to eat and females to help build you stock. you may have learn a little more each year and it may get easyer. I let the hawks and owls take a chicken every once in a while but they also eat squriles and gophers and even rats and I like seeing them around. Red tail hawk are not to bad but those darn copper hawks are snikky but they also take out those birds that have been eating the peaches. I love hearing the hoot owls and barn and horn owl are nice to have around. Yeah old horn owl may eat one of the cats or a chicken but just think a barn owl has to eat a rat or gopher every night a pair two and if they have babys add 5 or so mice for each baby. thats 7 days a week. Yeah I seen a hawk pick up a chicken and fly off just clearing the trees with such a heavy load but count my self luck to be there to see it. Some thing money can't buy. and thats good because money is hard to come by. Where else can you start with just a seed and get a crop. from one plant can come 1000s and 1000s. nobody know how many eggs are in a chicken and from a trio you could have a big flock in no time. I bought 1 Macadamia nut and planted it and took cuttings and not have about 70. so from one tree can come 1000s. I have been to Cal. Rare Fruit Growers meeting and gotten sion wood from so many apples,plums,pears,etc. free (graft wood exchanges). Some plants you can just stick a branch in the grown and walla next year you have a tree. Sure there are floods and droughts and freezes but if you have the land in good health its one of the few places where you can borrow seed money and your off again. I'm a cheerleader for homesteading and feel living off the earth is a honest way to go. Well got to go put the chickens up tonight so they don't get eat. Chickens out side at least roost its those darn ducks that get eat easy i have to lock them up at night. it takes time to put them away at night but you may still have them in the morning. ever notice how pale a store bought egg looks the orange yoke is yellow and the taste is gone. I wounder is many people ever get to taste a range feed real egg or chicken.Or a vineripen anything. On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, bonni brooks wrote: > On 02/21/95 at 14:53:06 c_dbowen@qualcomm.com said: > > Homesteading as we seem to have defined it is one of those things I have > >been watching for several years. The idea of moving to the country and > >fighting for our substance from the very soil under our feet has real > >appeal. Clean air, wholesome food and complete control of our destiny offer > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Complete control of our destiny? Ain't no such thing! > > The wholesome food part depends upon lots of things we can't control - > mostly the weather. For instance, last summer I had a dozen tomato > plants and got a half dozen tomatoes, because fall came early and nearly > all the tomatoes never ripened. There are also rats with hooves (most > people call them deer) who share your opinion on the tastiness of fresh > garden vegetables. There are plant diseases and plant pests. > > If you keep livestock, you can do your best but a disease could wipe > out most of animals, or your favorite ewe could die lambing, or your > chickens could turn out to be egg-eaters, or the inevitable foxes and > weasels will get to the meat cockerels before you do, or a stray dog > could kill your sheep or goats or chickens. OOH, I HATE DOGS!!! (Don't > get me started on dogs!) Oh yeah, and hawks just love fresh chicken too. > If you have hawks and don't cover the chicken run, you've just built a > nice hawk feeder. Yes, hawks can and do fly off with chickens in their > grubby talons. > > Don't forget the tax man. Fail to pay your taxes, and the county can > sell your land out from under you for the cost of the back taxes. > > Complete control of your destiny? Sure, if the sun shines, the weather > cooperates, the pests, predators and diseases stay away...... > > :-> > bonni > > IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak > ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine > NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic > | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." > Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org or check out my homepage: http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 22:19:06 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA11167; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:19:06 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA18143; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:21:50 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06427; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 03:14:15 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06417; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:14:14 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyegq12456; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:13:29 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA22705 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:12:14 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:12:13 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Self sufficient To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <950222183815_29402084@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1895 Status: RO X-Status: Larry - There is a Luddite contingent of self-reliance folks who abhor or at least distrust modern technology -- there is a magazine that caters to these folks, and the editor published a plea that no one even mention his magazine on the Internet, root of all modern evil. For this reason I'll only mention how silly and sad I think this attitude is rather than telling you the name of the magazine, to at least partially comply with his wishes. This magazine is part of a noble attempt to answer the needs that we all are expressing here, to get back to the land and away from the rat-race. I think these people take it a bit too far, and in the process they miss out on the incredible opportunity to reach kindred souls in far-flung parts (like what we have here). Heck, even the Shakers were gung-ho about technological progress! I don't think you have to abandon technology - just apply it appropriately. On Wed, 22 Feb 1995 LCSkinner@aol.com wrote: > I think what most of are doing is winnowing the grain from the chaff. There's > no one I know that's into homesteading/self-reliance that wants to dump ALL > of civilization. I like things like computers and antibiotics and msuic on > CD. On the other hand, I like the freedom to grow and eat what I like, and > KNOW what goes into it. So what I'm doing is living in a place where I can > take what I like of civilization, but not be forced to live with the downside > of it. > Larry > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Feb 22 22:53:37 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA02466; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:53:37 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA19686; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:36:09 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13200; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 03:22:23 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13182; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:22:22 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyegr13401; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:19:37 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA23180 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:18:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:18:20 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: How much rocky land is enough? To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <950222183802_29401855@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1534 Status: RO X-Status: Yes - also, take inspiration from Helen and Scott Nearing - they were able to rebuild spent and poor soil on their various homestead plots by getting serious about composting. If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading their _Good Life_ books - they are a matter-of-fact account of how the Nearings established and ran their homesteads in New England. They discuss how they used the rocks to build structures and how they established their subsistance gardens using organic techniques. And they started over 50 years ago, long before the Back-to-the-Land Movement. On Wed, 22 Feb 1995 LCSkinner@aol.com wrote: > Down here in sounth central KY we have bedrock popping up through the top > soil in places, and lotsa rocks all over. But just about everything grow > here. For a garden, you need to fiddle wiht the soil some, add plenty of peat > and humus and sand as needed to make a good plot. Root crops can be a hassle > unless you create a deep bed for them. Really about all you can do is try. > Talk to locals who have big gardens, and maybe the county extension might > help. > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 08:59:02 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA09766; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 08:59:02 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA15917; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:01:56 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28647; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:54:44 GMT Received: from milkman.cac.psu.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28627; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 08:54:42 -0500 Received: from curtiss.cac.psu.edu by milkman.cac.psu.edu with SMTP id AA05290 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 23 Feb 1995 08:54:40 -0500 From: MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI Received: by curtiss.cac.psu.edu id ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 08:54:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199502231354.AA02204@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> Subject: Re: Self sufficient To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 08:54:40 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <950222183815_29402084@aol.com> from "LCSkinner@aol.com" at Feb 22, 95 06:38:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1005 Status: RO X-Status: > > I think what most of are doing is winnowing the grain from the chaff. There's > no one I know that's into homesteading/self-reliance that wants to dump ALL > of civilization. I like things like computers and antibiotics and msuic on > CD. On the other hand, I like the freedom to grow and eat what I like, and > KNOW what goes into it. So what I'm doing is living in a place where I can > take what I like of civilization, but not be forced to live with the downside > of it. > Larry > Yes, the self-reliance issue is a continuim (SP?). I, personally, am ditching computers and music on CD because they require to much. To have your computer and Stereo you need electricity (dependence). If you want to connect to the "net" you also need a phone or T-1 connection. These are all things I want to do without. Is there anyone out there, living in cold regions (NH, ME, Canada, etc) that is currently electric and gas free? If so, could you contact me so that we may chat...? Thanks..Mike From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 09:13:22 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15187; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:13:22 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA18201; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:17:18 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10053; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:11:51 GMT Received: from EKU.ACS.EKU.EDU by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10043; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:11:49 -0500 Received: from ACS.EKU.EDU by ACS.EKU.EDU (PMDF V4.3-7 #7621) id <01HNDTECX3GW002XPP@ACS.EKU.EDU>; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:10:38 EST Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:10:38 -0500 (EST) From: Whats the frequency Kenneth? Subject: south central kentucky To: homestead@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HNDTED01KI002XPP@ACS.EKU.EDU> X-Vms-To: IN%"homestead@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 552 Status: RO X-Status: >Down here in sounth central KY we have bedrock popping up through the top >soil in places, and lotsa rocks all over. But just about everything grow >here. For a garden, you need to fiddle wiht the soil some, add plenty of peat >and humus and sand as needed to make a good plot. Root crops can be a hassle >unless you create a deep bed for them. Really about all you can do is try. >Talk to locals who have big gardens, and maybe the county extension might >help. Hey I am from south central ky, I live in lexington now, what county you be in? Bill From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 09:13:22 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15187; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:13:22 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA18201; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:17:18 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10053; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:11:51 GMT Received: from EKU.ACS.EKU.EDU by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10043; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:11:49 -0500 Received: from ACS.EKU.EDU by ACS.EKU.EDU (PMDF V4.3-7 #7621) id <01HNDTECX3GW002XPP@ACS.EKU.EDU>; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:10:38 EST Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:10:38 -0500 (EST) From: Whats the frequency Kenneth? Subject: south central kentucky To: homestead@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HNDTED01KI002XPP@ACS.EKU.EDU> X-Vms-To: IN%"homestead@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 552 Status: RO X-Status: D >Down here in sounth central KY we have bedrock popping up through the top >soil in places, and lotsa rocks all over. But just about everything grow >here. For a garden, you need to fiddle wiht the soil some, add plenty of peat >and humus and sand as needed to make a good plot. Root crops can be a hassle >unless you create a deep bed for them. Really about all you can do is try. >Talk to locals who have big gardens, and maybe the county extension might >help. Hey I am from south central ky, I live in lexington now, what county you be in? Bill From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 11:34:51 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA25923; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:34:51 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA06584; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:38:42 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22475; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 16:34:58 GMT Received: from milkman.cac.psu.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22412; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:34:53 -0500 Received: from curtiss.cac.psu.edu by milkman.cac.psu.edu with SMTP id AA09135 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:34:50 -0500 From: MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI Received: by curtiss.cac.psu.edu id ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:34:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199502231634.AA03138@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> Subject: Re: Self sufficient To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:34:42 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Evans" at Feb 22, 95 10:12:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 400 Status: RO X-Status: Do you have the name and publisher of that magazine???? I do not HATE technology, but I understand that most of it is sinking us down further, rather than rising us above. Think of everything that must be done to keep you net connection. I am fairly new to this thinking. I have been a hardcore computer geek for some time, and now I am working away from it....it is hard though. - Mike From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 11:51:53 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05949; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:51:53 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA10081; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:54:01 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29895; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 16:43:21 GMT Received: from proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29865; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:43:19 -0500 Received: from [128.183.28.116] by proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:43:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:43:16 -0500 To: homestead@world.std.com From: DOSGOOD@PROXIMA.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Dean Osgood) Subject: Re: Self sufficient Message-Id: <1418582702-37122233@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov> Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 3137 Status: RO X-Status: One point that I have yet to see made is the trade off in time/energy/money one makes by going to a "self-sufficent life style". It takes a lot of time to garden, cut firewood, tend animals, repair buildings, preserve food, handpump water, make cloths, etc. etc. etc..... Then there are the areas in life where you need currency (or exchange media) for "little things" like property tax, medical bills, medicine, spices, powder and primers, fiber products( cloth, rope), repair parts, lubrication, tires and fuel (chainsaw, tiller, truck or what ever), batterys, flashlights, welding, grind stones, paint, string, shoes, boots, raincoats, roofing, etc. At the least I would guess that an individual needs around $7,000+ a year to have some basics and some medical insurance..... Haveing tryed it once upon a time, I know that you need income from some source, and unless you are going to go into some sort of agri-business you can not make it just off the land. The smallest going concern that I know of is one of 90 acres where the people raise cat-nip for pet stores on 15-20 acres, and that requires equipment (mower, binder, thrashing machine, bagger,) that requires maintence, that requires parts. (they have 25 acres flat as opposed to my 18 acres flat, and I found that there is not enough money in livestock) Someday I will have enough to retire on, and will go back to the farm, and I will run it as a HOBBY FARM.(Ouch, their, I finaly said it).... while some people try to live without a phone conection, IMHO the benifits far outweight the problems. I tried it for several years, after the phone company asked for $3,000 to instal a phone line to my farm. I used a radio link to a friend for emergencys, but had reliability problems. Eventualy I went ahead and got phone service to a pole in the woods 2 miles from my house, from there I have run cable myself. I want the ability to call for an ambulance, fire dept. , keep in touch with family, ask the farm at the bottom of the hill if the mail has come in..... Couple of people I know live off the grid(electric) in WV, andrun everything on hybrid systems, mostly solar electric/battery storage, woodstove heat/passive solar house, gravity water for some, hand pumps for some, propane stove for summer cooking/backup lighting, and all of them have to spend a couple of hundred bucks a year on maintence, and a couple of hours a week on the system. Even a wood stove used only for cooking during canning season, and as a backup to a passive solar house will go thru 2 cords of wood a year, and thats going to take 4-6 days a year to cut/haul/split/stack/etc.. I have figured that the number of hours an Amish farmer puts in are probably well over 70 per week (12 hours a day, 6 days a week), and while thats fine when your young, I want the time for the luxery of reading, listening to the symphony, bird watching, fishing, etc. Not to rain on anyones parade, but it is one side of the coin OTOH, I cant wait to get out of town, and back to the farm on the weekends. and I will take being poor over a lot of the crazyness/crowding in the citys these days. Dean Osgood From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 12:35:29 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA02239; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:35:29 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA19426; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:38:29 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07040; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:27:54 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06999; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:27:52 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id JAA27391 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:27:45 -0800 Message-Id: <199502231727.JAA27391@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:27:24 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Self sufficient X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1739 Status: RO X-Status: > Do you have the name and publisher of that magazine???? > > I do not HATE technology, but I understand that most of it is sinking us >down further, rather than rising us above. Think of everything that must be >done to keep you net connection. > I am fairly new to this thinking. I have been a hardcore computer geek >for some time, and now I am working away from it....it is hard though. Dumping technology just because it is technology is just as bad as grabing it just because it is. THe farmer of 300 years ago was traped in his circle of weather, pests, and limited markets because of limited access to knowledge. Rapid spread of knowledge through the technology of the telephone has made life better. The internet does an even better job of spreading knowledge because it is not just the collected knowledge of your family and neighbors but the collected knowledge of everyone connected. Mail lists such as this allow us to share knowledge and skills. It may not all be correct but it at least does allow us to learn and decide what is more correct for our own situation. What is fun is to look at the discussion of early telephone and television. THe television was going to bring culture to the homes of the most remote viewer. It was going to spread political debate to the far reaches of the country. Little did they realize that we would get "The Simpsons" and paid political sales campaigns instead. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 12:36:36 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA02937; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:36:36 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA19383; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:38:20 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02730; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:21:51 GMT Received: from wvnvm.wvnet.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02675; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:21:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199502231721.AA02675@world.std.com> Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2984; Thu, 23 Feb 95 12:20:25 EST Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (NJE origin U6ED4@WVNVM) by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4220; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:20:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:20:23 EST From: "bonni brooks" To: Subject: Re: How much land is enough? In-Reply-To: Message of 02/22/95 at 12:30:27 from DOSGOOD@PROXIMA.GSFC.NASA.GOV Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 774 Status: RO X-Status: On 02/22/95 at 12:30:27 DOSGOOD@PROXIMA.GSFC.NASA.GOV said: >Look at the phone service, I think that if you pick the right area you can >get a T-1 line, and in bad wether you might need a lot of bandwidth. Area >gets a lot of snow every so often. Oh, this reminds me. Some of the more remote (and some of the less remote) areas still have party lines (we had one until a year and a half ago, and we live 15 mins from West Virginia University). Definitely look into phone service. bonni IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 12:51:34 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA11130; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:51:34 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA21465; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:52:43 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17713; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:42:14 GMT Received: from wvnvm.wvnet.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17694; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:42:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199502231742.AA17694@world.std.com> Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3278; Thu, 23 Feb 95 12:41:19 EST Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (NJE origin U6ED4@WVNVM) by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5291; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:41:18 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:41:17 EST From: "bonni brooks" To: Subject: Re: Self sufficient In-Reply-To: Message of 02/22/95 at 15:20:38 from kowens@teleport.com Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 736 Status: RO X-Status: On 02/22/95 at 15:20:38 kowens@teleport.com said: >Hey Bonni, you forgot about the well running dry, the pump breaking, >someone getting sick, the soil losing fertility, aches and pains, >the family refusing to eat another leek, the root cellar leaking, >and about a thousand other things. Aren't you a little over >optimistic . >Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) Oh, mercy me! I'll take 50 lashes (with a limp spaghetti noodle). ;-> bonni IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 12:53:55 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA12411; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:53:55 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA21509; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:52:53 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16547; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:40:21 GMT Received: from wvnvm.wvnet.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16536; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:40:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199502231740.AA16536@world.std.com> Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3257; Thu, 23 Feb 95 12:39:28 EST Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (NJE origin U6ED4@WVNVM) by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5204; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:39:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:39:28 EST From: "bonni brooks" To: Subject: Re: Self sufficient In-Reply-To: Message of 02/22/95 at 22:12:13 from aevans@cais.cais.com Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1897 Status: RO X-Status: > I think these people take it a bit too far, and in the >process they miss out on the incredible opportunity to reach kindred >souls in far-flung parts (like what we have here). Heck, even the >Shakers were gung-ho about technological progress! I don't think you >have to abandon technology - just apply it appropriately. Absolutely. I like computers, antibiotics (I'd be dead if those hadn't been invented - severe post-partum infection, don'tcha know), cold root beer, and ceiling fans. I'm going to use a Troy-Bilt tiller on the ground I have planned for a rose garden; my husband is going to rent a mechanical post hole digger of some kind so he can get post holes four feet deep. I think these things enhance our ability to be self-sufficient, and I also think the Luddite mentality denies that "no man is an island." On the other hand, we bake all our bread, we have chickens for eggs and later this year we'll have goats for fresh milk. I think it's downright goofy to bake muffins and pancakes from a mix (containing unknown chemical preservatives) when you can make them from scratch just as easily (with no preservatives at all). I have major reservations about non-organic fertilizers and pesticides, and I despise television. But I'm grateful for the hospital that saved my youngest son's life when he was born two months early, the fabric stores that make it possible to make clothing, the computer job that gives my husband an income. Cities have their uses. I just don't want to live in one. You know when gangs show up in Morgantown, WV, that it's getting bad. just my $.02. bonni IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 13:29:19 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA00350; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:29:19 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA26728; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:26:51 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15315; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:13:35 GMT Received: from olympus.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15259; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:13:33 -0500 Received: from pratt.olympus.net (ptpm015.olympus.net [198.133.237.45]) by olympus.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA20314 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 10:18:21 -0800 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 10:00:44 PST From: Chris and Kim Pratt Subject: Re: How much rocky land is enough? To: homestead@world.std.com X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 457 Status: RO X-Status: Does anyone know the ISBN numbers or the publishers or a phone number to get the books? Our local bookstore doesn't carry them. I hope they are still in print! Kim > >Yes - also, take inspiration from Helen and Scott Nearing - they were >able to rebuild spent and poor soil on their various homestead plots by >getting serious about composting. If you haven't already, I highly >recommend reading their _Good Life_ books - they are a matter-of-fact From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 14:09:04 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA24924; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:09:04 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA03982; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:11:16 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15086; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:55:17 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15049; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:55:13 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA21756 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:55:13 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:55:13 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: How much rocky land is enough? To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1191 Status: RO X-Status: There is a new edition that was just printed that combines the first two books - it's called _The Good Life_, I think. I'll be adding it to the home page in the next few days, so I'll be able to post the ISBN and publisher. On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, Chris and Kim Pratt wrote: > Does anyone know the ISBN numbers or the publishers or a phone > number to get the books? Our local bookstore doesn't carry them. > I hope they are still in print! > Kim > > > > >Yes - also, take inspiration from Helen and Scott Nearing - they were > >able to rebuild spent and poor soil on their various homestead plots by > >getting serious about composting. If you haven't already, I highly > >recommend reading their _Good Life_ books - they are a matter-of-fact > > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 14:09:45 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA25273; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:09:45 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA04016; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:11:23 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12837; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:51:37 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12799; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:51:32 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA21371 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:51:32 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:51:32 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Self sufficient To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199502231740.AA16536@world.std.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 3305 Status: RO X-Status: I totally agree. The Luddites also fail to realize that they use far more technology than even they realize - hand-powered tools where once high-tech. Heck, farming itself is arguably a technology, and it certainly can be (and has been) applied inappropriately. In fact, I would argue that many "plain" communities (like the Amish and Mennonites), despite their admirable self-reliance, are just as short-sighted from a sustainability standpoint as the rest of the world. I think the real answers will come when we learn to choose the good things from each world - the self-reliance and community spirit of the "plain" folks, and the innovation and sustainability knowledge coming from the cutting-edge. It would really be a shame if we wound up with the provincialism and closed-mindedness of the plain folks and the Home Shopping Network ;). On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, bonni brooks wrote: > > I think these people take it a bit too far, and in the > >process they miss out on the incredible opportunity to reach kindred > >souls in far-flung parts (like what we have here). Heck, even the > >Shakers were gung-ho about technological progress! I don't think you > >have to abandon technology - just apply it appropriately. > > Absolutely. I like computers, antibiotics (I'd be dead if those hadn't > been invented - severe post-partum infection, don'tcha know), cold > root beer, and ceiling fans. I'm going to use a Troy-Bilt tiller on > the ground I have planned for a rose garden; my husband is going to > rent a mechanical post hole digger of some kind so he can get post > holes four feet deep. I think these things enhance our ability to be > self-sufficient, and I also think the Luddite mentality denies that > "no man is an island." > > On the other hand, we bake all our bread, we have chickens for eggs > and later this year we'll have goats for fresh milk. I think it's > downright goofy to bake muffins and pancakes from a mix (containing > unknown chemical preservatives) when you can make them from scratch > just as easily (with no preservatives at all). I have major reservations > about non-organic fertilizers and pesticides, and I despise television. > > But I'm grateful for the hospital that saved my youngest son's life when > he was born two months early, the fabric stores that make it possible > to make clothing, the computer job that gives my husband an income. > > Cities have their uses. I just don't want to live in one. You know > when gangs show up in Morgantown, WV, that it's getting bad. > > just my $.02. > bonni > > IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak > ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine > NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic > | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 15:21:51 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA07517; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:21:51 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA16155; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:23:26 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24810; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:17:19 GMT Received: from milkman.cac.psu.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24772; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:17:16 -0500 Received: from curtiss.cac.psu.edu by milkman.cac.psu.edu with SMTP id AA14476 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:17:14 -0500 From: MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI Received: by curtiss.cac.psu.edu id ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:17:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199502232017.AA05310@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> Subject: Re: Self sufficient To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:17:12 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Evans" at Feb 23, 95 01:51:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1919 Status: RO X-Status: > > Absolutely. I like computers, antibiotics (I'd be dead if those hadn't > > been invented - severe post-partum infection, don'tcha know), cold > > root beer, and ceiling fans. I'm going to use a Troy-Bilt tiller on > > the ground I have planned for a rose garden; my husband is going to > > rent a mechanical post hole digger of some kind so he can get post > > holes four feet deep. I think these things enhance our ability to be > > self-sufficient, and I also think the Luddite mentality denies that > > "no man is an island." > > Technologies by themselves are not bad. Uses can be bad, and they means to obtain them can be bad. I have been fighting the issue of good and bad technologies myself. I can only hope that if I am diagnosed with cancer I will be as brave as Ivan Illich and refuse treatment. I don't want to get into an argument with people here over this issue. I just want to get info and experiences of people being more self-reliant. But when you look at technology, look at what you have to do to obtain and maintain it. Antibiotics can be great, but think of all the nasty resistant strains of bacteria which have developed. Think of the money put into the research (more hours at your job to support it). Think of teh addded research needed to combat new resistant strains. Same with the internet. You spread information, but have to pay for the constant upkeep of it (taxes), the upgrading of you computer, phone bills, electicity (pollution, depletion of resources, loss of land). Then you have to weigh it for yourself. ...Everyone is going to come up with their own conclusions after looking at it. I am currently torn between ditching this thing in front of me, and keeping it. I tell myself that when I get to grad school and make my own home I will ditch it. Will I...? I don't know. Well, enough rambling.....Please don't hate me. * Mike From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 15:35:59 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15600; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:35:59 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA17796; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:36:17 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06245; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:33:35 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06221; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:33:33 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA01178 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:33:33 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:33:32 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Luddites To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1384 Status: RO X-Status: Let me clarify something - I've made a few postings railing against Luddites, but I want to be clear that I welcome alternate points of view on this list. If there is such a thing as a Luddite Internet user, I would be thrilled to have them join the list and jump in the fray. This is where I differ from the point-of-view taken by the editors of _Plain Magazine_. So many people asked me for the name that I'm going ahead and printing it - I would only be catering to Scott Savage's foolish (IMHO) whim if I didn't. Don't look for it in the archive, however. In _Plain_'s charter issue, they said they were publishing in order to help guide folks like us "back home" to a plainer lifestyle. But they don't want to use any of the channels we use in order to reach us. Strange. And yet they have no problem using the most overblown, over-automated, high-tech-reliant communications medium we have, the snail-mail system! Go figure. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 15:50:24 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA24036; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:50:24 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA19796; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:52:35 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14522; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:46:12 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14515; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:46:10 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA02362 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:46:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:46:10 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Luddites again To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1654 Status: RO X-Status: Sorry to use still more bandwidth on this subject, but another point dawned on me. It's great for folks like the _Plain_ editors to sit there on their homesteads in Ohio and tell us how evil the technology is in our lives. Tell me soemthing I don't know. What they perhaps fail to see is that some of us are ensnared in our lifestyles, and to get out as quickly as possible and get on with homesteading, we need to turn the technology on itself. Without the contacts I've made on the Internet, it might have taken me years to figure out how to approach the task of exiting the rat-race. There's so much technology tangled up in my life (cars, credit cards, computers, phones, etc.) that are needed for life-support in this lifestyle that I can't just drop them all one day and walk away. I'd wind up in debtor's prison. Instead, I'm using those same imprisoning technologies to break out - I need the car to travel around to find my homestead plot, the Internet lets me share ideas with kindred spirits like you all, etc.). Without those things, I might be stuck here in suburbia forever. Once I get bootstrapped, then I can consider stripping these things out of my life (and I forsee that I will). +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 18:19:21 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15490; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:19:21 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA09803; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:22:07 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01739; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 23:17:31 GMT Received: from tyrell.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01721; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:17:29 -0500 Received: by tyrell.net id AA16647 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for homestead@world.std.com); Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:14:45 -0600 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:14:44 -0600 (CST) From: Willie Sullivan To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Self sufficient In-Reply-To: <199502231727.JAA27391@qualcomm.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 295 Status: RO X-Status: > > What is fun is to look at the discussion of early telephone and > television. This reminds me of some accounts I've read of the criticism of automobiles when they first came out. Folks said, "Well what good are they? You can't plow with em, you can't cross a creek with em..." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 18:20:22 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16029; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:20:22 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA09834; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:22:15 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25782; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 23:07:40 GMT Received: from tyrell.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25749; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:07:39 -0500 Received: by tyrell.net id AA15255 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for homestead@world.std.com); Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:04:55 -0600 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:04:55 -0600 (CST) From: Willie Sullivan To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Self sufficient In-Reply-To: <199502231354.AA02204@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 938 Status: RO X-Status: > > > Yes, the self-reliance issue is a continuim (SP?). I, personally, am > ditching computers and music on CD because they require to much. To have > your computer and Stereo you need electricity (dependence). If you want > to connect to the "net" you also need a phone or T-1 connection. These > are all things I want to do without. > Is there anyone out there, living in cold regions (NH, ME, Canada, etc) that > is currently electric and gas free? If so, could you contact me so that we > may chat...? > Thanks..Mike > > Dependence on electricity, in many ways is no different than the dependence on wood (for heating, etc.). You need not depend on the electric company. You could generate you own from solar, hydro, wind, etc. Electricity is a "natural" phenomenon. Consider lightening, nerve impulses, static electricity, electric eels, etc. I think the important thing is to use tools and not let tools use you. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 18:21:49 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16758; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:21:49 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA06996; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:53:24 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11497; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 22:46:12 GMT Received: from luga.latrobe.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11477; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:46:09 -0500 Received: from lux.latrobe.edu.au (lux.latrobe.edu.au [131.172.4.3]) by luga.latrobe.edu.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA27024 for ; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 09:45:11 +1100 Received: by lux.latrobe.edu.au (5.67a/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA02095; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 09:45:10 +1100 Message-Id: <199502232245.AA02095@lux.latrobe.edu.au> Subject: Re: Self sufficient To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 09:45:10 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199502231354.AA02204@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> from "MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI" at Feb 23, 95 08:54:40 am From: dwayne@leri.edu (Dwayne) Organisation: NEXUS-melbourne. X-Url: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/dwayne.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1004 Status: RO X-Status: I peeled a grape, and found that MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI had written upon it: : : Yes, the self-reliance issue is a continuim (SP?). I, personally, am : ditching computers and music on CD because they require to much. To have : your computer and Stereo you need electricity (dependence). Micro-hydro power. PV solar cells, whihc rae heading towards being able to compete with mains electricity. : If you want : to connect to the "net" you also need a phone or T-1 connection. These : are all things I want to do without. Radio modems. Dwayne. -------> dwayne@leri.edu <-------- * http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/Permaculture/permaculture.html * r e t u r n t o t h e s o u r c e NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier.. mail listserv@netcom.com http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/ "subscribe nexus-gaia" Dwayne ...our.aim.is.wakefulness.our.enemy.is.dreamless.sleep... From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Feb 23 20:35:46 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18508; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:35:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA01772; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:37:23 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24812; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 01:26:55 GMT Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24786; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:26:53 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA119719213; Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:26:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:26:53 -0500 From: Sandpeep@aol.com Message-Id: <950223202652_30572043@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Self sufficient Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 932 Status: RO X-Status: Gangs in Morgantown WV? What is the world coming to?? :-( Have been reading postings on subject with interest (OK, I'll admit only got interested because they automatically get downloaded along with the other postings) If I could put in my oar, I don't really have any orginal thoughts on same, but having just re-read Walden while riding the metro {public trans that works in Baltimore :-)}, I would suggest reading from someone who was wrestling with the same definition over 150 years ago, and book still reads like it was written yesterday. Thought Henry David was a windbag when I had to read him years ago, now realize he was one of the few individuals who was not bound by paradigms around him. (His essay on Civil Disobedience isn't bad either - was where Ghandi & later MLK got their ideas on the same principle.) Walden and other Writing by Henery David Thoreau Bantam Classic, $2.50 ISBN#0-553-21246-X From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Feb 24 11:49:51 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18982; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:49:51 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA23648; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:53:09 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24395; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 16:45:17 GMT Received: from wvnvm.wvnet.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24371; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:45:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199502241645.AA24371@world.std.com> Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2814; Fri, 24 Feb 95 11:44:24 EST Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (NJE origin U6ED4@WVNVM) by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6107; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:44:23 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 11:44:22 EST From: "bonni brooks" To: Subject: Re: Self sufficient In-Reply-To: Message of 02/23/95 at 20:26:53 from Sandpeep@aol.com Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 671 Status: RO X-Status: On 02/23/95 at 20:26:53 Sandpeep@aol.com said: >Gangs in Morgantown WV? What is the world coming to?? :-( Personally, I think it's going to hell in a handbasket, and it's largely because of television, but that's just my opinion. I took the bolt cutters to the tv cable a couple of years ago and have never regretted it. The difference it made in my children was astonishing. bonni IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Feb 25 08:13:08 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA04805; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 08:13:08 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA28171; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 21:11:13 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02873; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 01:57:01 GMT Received: from milkman.cac.psu.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02860; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 20:56:59 -0500 Received: from curtiss.cac.psu.edu by milkman.cac.psu.edu with SMTP id AA10496 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 24 Feb 1995 20:56:57 -0500 From: MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI Received: by curtiss.cac.psu.edu id ; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 20:56:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199502250156.AA16626@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> Subject: Refridgeration...? To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 20:56:57 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 322 Status: RO X-Status: I have another question. Is anyone using a refridgeration system that is passive? I saw one design in "Underground homes for $50 to $500 dollars", but it seems a little unstable to me. (PS: that may not be the EXACT title of the book, but it is close). If so, what principle does it work on? Thanks again...Mike From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Feb 25 08:19:24 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA06947; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 08:19:24 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA24914; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 20:26:41 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09971; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 01:22:09 GMT Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09942; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 20:22:07 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA04931 for ; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 17:21:58 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: TV Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 16:59:23 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Lines: 51 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2594 Status: RO X-Status: > RANT MODE ON > > What I've noticed in this thread and the one about TV is the incredible > self-righteousness that some of you wallow in. So you don't like the > sanctimonius attitude of those at _Plain_ but then you all wax poetic > 'bout your untainted youth sans television. Good grief! Even in the > earliest editions of Mother Earth News those open-minded longhairs were > sure rabid about bein' self-sufficient. This is one of the things that > keeps homesteading from catching on. People get all jittery when we > start to talk like prophets in sackcloth n' ashes. Well I have been mostly lurking around here, but the above comment prompted a chuckle and a response. I thought all the the negative comments about TV which have been posted were just facts. In my (radical) opinion TV is a very serious problem. It wastes energy, inhibits reasoning, and has been proven to depress people who watch it in great amounts. It defines a value system through commercials which is very wrong. Advertising will equate a product with an image and try to convince you that this product will make you happy. If we continue raising people this way the world will be in trouble soon. Well, I'll step off this soap box now, hope nobody was offended. An Introduction. We started planing and working towards a more self sufficient lifestyle about 30 years ago. Starting from an urban background and living in an apartment made the task somewhat difficult. But, we kept at it and now have many of the physical things associated with homesteading. (land, creeks, earth sheltered house, orchards, gardens, sheep, etc.) What we found interesting was that homesteading is more of a mental challenge than physical. It did not take long to get a large garden planted, but it has taken us ten years to learn about rotation, preservation, meal planning, food processing, and all the other aspects of food production. We still have a long way to go, but that is good. If one ever stops learning, then life is less interesting. Most of the land clearing, building, solar energy systems, farm animal trials, fencing, and other setup activities are in a maintenance stage. Our current focus is in food production, conservation, and learning to enjoy each day. We failed to become self sufficient in the areas of transportation and communications. This was intended to be a friendly introduction, so please overlook my writing style and insert a grin at the end of each line. Jeff Owens (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Feb 25 23:51:18 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA13633; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 23:51:18 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA24900; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 23:55:49 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09253; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 04:46:07 GMT Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09236; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 23:46:06 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA088813965; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 23:46:05 -0500 Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 23:46:05 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950225234603_32536039@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Slow Mo-dem Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 198 Status: RO X-Status: Time for a shameless plug. Midwest Micro has Infotel 14.4 fax/modems for $69 (internal). Mine works like a charm. The phone # is 1-800-972-8822. It's a small investment for what you get out of it. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Feb 25 20:26:57 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA01219; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 20:26:57 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA05080; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 20:31:24 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15777; Sun, 26 Feb 1995 01:10:52 GMT Received: from olympus.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15698; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 20:10:45 -0500 Received: from pratt.olympus.net (ptpm002.olympus.net [198.133.237.32]) by olympus.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA19891 for ; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 17:16:16 -0800 Date: Sat, 25 Feb 95 16:51:18 PST From: Chris and Kim Pratt Subject: The Home Dairy To: homestead@world.std.com X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 863 Status: RO X-Status: A Is there anyone else on the list that has a home dairy? After homesteading for 6 years, we have finally started ours after much research and planning. We have decided that we will pasturize our milk. What I'm not sure of is whether I separate the cream from the milk BEFORE I pasturize or AFTER. A part of me think the answer is: "It depends on whether you want pasturized cream or not!". Once I pasturize, is it harder to separate cream from milk? We will be making butter and sour cream with our cream for starters. Something to offer: my husband restores old tractors and has a lot of knowledge on all aspects of getting them running and keeping them running as well as total restoration. So if anyone has any questions in the area of tractors or implements, let us know! If he doesn't have the answer, he has a lot of reference books to check. Kim From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Feb 27 10:21:15 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA28197; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 10:21:15 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA11888; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 10:22:40 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00814; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 15:20:19 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00772; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 10:20:17 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA25400 for ; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 07:20:13 -0800 Message-Id: <199502271520.HAA25400@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 07:19:51 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: The Home Dairy X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1062 Status: RO X-Status: >Something to offer: my husband restores old tractors and has >a lot of knowledge on all aspects of getting them running and >keeping them running as well as total restoration. So if anyone >has any questions in the area of tractors or implements, let us know! >If he doesn't have the answer, he has a lot of reference books to >check. > >Kim For you that do not know there is an antique tractor mailing list. It can be joined by sending a subscribe message to: antique-tractor-request@ledger.co.forsyth.nc.us As Kim knows we are a good bunch to join if you have interest in antique tractors. The antiques we talk about are the ones most likely to be used by the short of cash farmer such as Ford Ns, Farmall Cubs and A's and a few John Deeres. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 10:08:43 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA28648; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:08:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA08920; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:13:14 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04514; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 15:00:24 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04479; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:00:22 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA24214 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:00:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:00:19 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Getting Together To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1658 Status: RO X-Status: Did any of you catch the Real Goods Remote Homes Tour last October? If you missed it, they may be doing another one this year. Basically, Real Goods signed up a bunch of people who own off-grid homes and had them hold an open house. You could call Real Goods and get a list of the participant homes in your region, and then on the Tour day, you could arrange to visit them. I went to three homes in Maryland, and it was a fantastic experience. For people considering building an off-grid home, there is no substitute for going and seeing real working off-grid homes and having a chance to grill the owners for the gory details of how they built their systems, how well they run, what they would do differently, etc. Thinking about how valuable I found that experience to be, it dawned on me that we could do something similar here, for homesteading in general. Our readership seems to be made up (predictably) of two kinds of folks - active homesteaders and prospective homesteaders. Why not try to get them together? How about it - any homesteaders willing to let a few of us dreamers bug you for a few hours and see how you do it? I'd be willing to act as a coordinator, if need be. What do you think? +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 10:33:46 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA10269; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:33:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA13091; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:39:39 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21604; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 15:39:07 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21522; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:39:03 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA25045 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:39:00 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA23131; Tue Feb 28 10:37:46 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9502281537.AA23131@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Self sufficient To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Tue, 28 Feb 95 10:37:45 EST In-Reply-To: <199502221805.KAA11239@qualcomm.com>; from "Don Bowen" at Feb 22, 95 10:04 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1409 Status: RO X-Status: Just a quick note, there are ways to protect crops against deer, rabbits etc. when we take an adversarial approach to nature it always wins. Why is it that destroying is the first solution? Isn't that what brought this country to its knees as populations of indegenous life have at times been wiped out by the search and destroy methods? Was another considerd? We have a fenced 1. acre area, the agarden is inside and is fenced, we have dogs which we keep in our area and they keep the deer and rabbits out. If you have a neighbor problem with dogs you can file a "Free Roaming" complaint with the local shelter. We got results from this that seem to be working so far. As far as parasites and land erosion go, alot of that stems from sick weak over farmed soil. the idea is to establish predator prey relationships to keep problem insects away and the good soil enriching life in. There are ways to live and treat the soil with respect but it takes some deprogramming to learn it all and strike up a balance. The dogs can be kept out. Just like the ranchers in the west they need to start working with the local life and ecosystem not against it. I don't have all the answers but I know this, the indegenous insects and the balance that was once here in this country is the main problem with agriculture today. Droughts effects can be greatly minimized with healthy non-chemical techniques. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 23:04:44 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA08696; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 23:04:44 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA09345; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 21:26:03 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23977; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 02:15:36 GMT Received: from coyote.rain.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23945; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 21:15:32 -0500 Received: by coyote.rain.org(8.6.10/RAIN-1.0) with id SAA03957 for on Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:11:15 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: Sal Schettino To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Getting Together In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2479 Status: RO X-Status: I got cats that eat mice. I get them on the hungry side and never ever pet them . Their job is eatting rats mice gophers and that what they do. The ones they don't eat they scare the heck out of. ever notice how most poison has a cat looking at a mouse on the package . thats because they eat mice. most people have pet cats and would never think of their cat eatting a dirty old mice but these cats eat mice or rats or chipmunks whatever or go skinny. the best thing that ever happen to me was when mom cat show up a phro cat. it had babys and they are wild also . I keep them that way. yeah they got flees yeah their breath smells like dead mice still I'm glad i got um. ofcourse you can't use poison because you will kill the cats and barn owls which also have to eat a rat or gopher eevery night or starve. On Tue, 28 Feb 1995, Jeff Owens wrote: > > Our readership seems to be made up (predictably) of two kinds of folks - > > active homesteaders and prospective homesteaders. Why not try to get > > them together? How about it - any homesteaders willing to let a few of > > us dreamers bug you for a few hours and see how you do it? I'd be > > willing to act as a coordinator, if need be. What do you think? > > Sounds like an outstanding idea. This would be an > educational experience for everyone involved. Count us in. > > Also, does anyone have a solution to vole and mice eating > root crops. They keep going after our sun chokes and > carrots. We have tried traps and cats so far. Someone > said scatter ashes around the crops, but have not tried > that yet. Any other ideas. > > Here is an idea for controlling moles and gophers that > works fairly well. Many burrowing rodents have very > sensitive noses and do not like burnt sulphur. So every > spring we drive them out with simple home make sulphur > smoke bombs. Just put them in the holes every few months, > light and cover with dirt. > > The bombs are make out of potassium nitrate fertilizer, > sugar, and sulphur. Add a little water, mix into a dough. > Then roll up in newspaper tubes and bake in the sun. If > you have kids, they go crazy running around and plugging up > all the holes with smoke coming out. Good for half a day > of fun. > > Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) > Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org or check out my homepage: http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 00:31:11 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18415; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 00:31:11 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA00627; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 00:37:14 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08860; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 05:10:33 GMT Received: from green.ece.ucdavis.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08811; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 00:10:30 -0500 Received: by green.ece.ucdavis.edu; id AA02632; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 17:07:51 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 17:07:50 -0800 (PST) From: Andrew Hulse To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Wild Cats In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1148 Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 28 Feb 1995, Sal Schettino wrote: > > I got cats that eat mice. I get them on the hungry side and never ever > pet them . Their job is eatting rats mice gophers and that what they > do. The ones they don't eat they scare the heck out of. ever notice how [...] I grew up on a farm like this, but I have read quite a number of articles in recent years about the damage that cats do to songbird populations. Apparently it's gotten so bad in Great Britain that they're in danger of losing entire species. It sort of gave me a new perspective on my father's lament about the disappearance of bluebirds and barn swallows over the past thirty years. There are other factors as well, namely destruction of habitat in North and Central America, but as a cat person I wonder if I should put a bell on my cat when she leaves the barn... Does anyone else consider this? --Andy Andrew Hulse | Opinions are mine, not the Regents' graduate student, EECS | University of California hulse@ece.ucdavis.edu | Davis, CA 95616 Antique Mechanics URL: http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~hulse/collection.html From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 01:29:47 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA12024; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 01:29:47 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA10820; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 01:35:53 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19948; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 06:33:40 GMT Received: from coyote.rain.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19937; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 01:33:39 -0500 Received: by coyote.rain.org(8.6.10/RAIN-1.0) with id WAA02010 for on Tue, 28 Feb 1995 22:29:23 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 22:29:21 -0800 (PST) From: Sal Schettino To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Wild Cats In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1215 Status: RO X-Status: > I grew up on a farm like this, but I have read quite a number of articles > in recent years about the damage that cats do to songbird populations. > Apparently it's gotten so bad in Great Britain that they're in danger of > losing entire species. It sort of gave me a new perspective on my > father's lament about the disappearance of bluebirds and barn swallows > over the past thirty years. > > There are other factors as well, namely destruction of habitat in North > and Central America, but as a cat person I wonder if I should put a bell > on my cat when she leaves the barn... > > Does anyone else consider this? > You may be right but I have less rats and mice and still see lots of songbirds around here. yeah they get a few . guess I just hate rats and mice and poison and beleave me they were thick around here before the cats showed up. If you leave a little brush around and maybe a hegerow or two I think the birds will be ok. If someone comes up with a better organic way to get rid of rats and mice and gophers I may change my mind. > Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org or check out my homepage: http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 08:46:45 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16154; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:46:45 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA01646; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:50:38 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00401; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 13:42:09 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00374; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:42:08 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA00724 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:42:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:42:05 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <9502281806.AA23463@pms923.pms.ford.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 3840 Status: RO X-Status: I went to three homes in Maryland - * One was an owner-built log house built with hand-peeled logs from the homesite. They have a large organic garden which provides most of their food, and a 12-panel PV array that provides all of their electricity. This was an interesting case, because the solar array, batteries, and inverter were located several hundred feet from the house, out in the field with the garden. The owner walked us through the whole system, and it was really instructional to see it all up close like that. Makes it a lot less scary, especially when you talk to the owner and see what's really involved in building and maintaining the system. Also, we talked about the building codes and inspection hassles he had, and how he would handle it all if he had it to do over again. There is just nothing like bending the ear of an old pro! * The next house I went to was my favorite. These folks are doing just about exactly what I would want to do. They built (themselves, with some contractor assistance) a passive solar, superinsulated house with a high-thermal-mass (soapstone) wood stove for additional heating. They have a 6-panel array (if I remember correctly) for all their electricity. Both this house and the previous house use electric water pumps - the first house had to pump 270 feet of head. The solar arrays handle it all. On this house, the PV array (but not the batteries/inverter) were also located about a hundred feet from the house, in the clearing by their pond. They did this because the passive solar design of their house requires shading in the summer, so the house is at the edge and just inside the woods. Thus, the panels have to be located away from the house to get sunlight year-round. They have a huge organic garden which provides most of their food, and a great root cellar built partially under the kitchen for inside access. The house is designed with alot of north-facing skylights, and is very bright during the day, virtually eliminating the need for electric lighting during the day (look sometime at the amount of electric lighting you use during the day - it may surprise you!). Both they and the previous house use some propane - for refrigeration, water heating, and backup electric generator. Their generator rarely kicks in - maybe once a year for a few hours or so. * The last house I went to was along the Chesapeake Bay. It was a timber-frame passive-solar house designed by the owner (an architect). This was a multi-million-dollar house, way out of my league, and not a homestead by any stretch. Nice house though. The others were owner-built from site-harvested materials (I forgot to mention that on the second house they had the local Amish community help them mill lumber from the timber cleared for their house, garden, and pond, and they built their house for about 10 cents a board foot. All-in-all, it was an inspirational experience, and I look forward to doing it again, and also to getting my own homestead going and on the tour. Also, I was surprised by the number of people who took part - some there were thirty or forty people at the second house in the brief period I was there, with people coming and going all the time. On Tue, 28 Feb 1995, Karl Henning wrote: > Yeah sounds great, what did you see at the tour? > what did you like? didn't like? [snip] +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 09:16:09 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA00698; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:16:09 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA05388; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:21:49 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00643; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 14:19:07 GMT Received: from aspen.plexus.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00615; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:19:04 -0500 Received: from kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com [192.217.104.107]) by aspen.plexus.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA06077 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:18:57 -0600 Received: by kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA14666; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:18:57 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:18:56 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Mayer X-Sender: mikem@kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Wild Cats In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 529 Status: RO X-Status: Also, I think a well-fed cat is more likely to have more time and energy to spend hunting around the barn for mice. They hunt out of instinct - not just to eat. We have two barn cats that are kept well-fed and healthy. They still go prowling around inside and outsode the barn looking for mice. I would say it's always better to have a healthy well-fed cat around. ============================================================================== Mike Mayer (414) 751-3557 Mike.Mayer@plexus.com From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 09:46:55 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA17288; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:46:55 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA08622; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:51:39 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16004; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 14:40:27 GMT Received: from firewall.meaddata.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15871; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:40:17 -0500 Received: from meaddata.com ([138.12.96.71]) by firewall.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10060; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:42:21 EST Received: from moe.meaddata.com by meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17168; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:41:15 EST Received: by moe.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17622; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:41:12 EST Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:41:12 EST From: barb@meaddata.com (Barb Bruns) Message-Id: <9503011441.AA17622@moe.meaddata.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Different Approach Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 905 Status: RO X-Status: Here is a concept that hasn't yet been mentioned. Is it possible to buy an already self-sufficient homestead? Understandably, once someone has achieved a degree of self-sufficiency through their own blood, sweat & tears, they probably aren't planning to sell it. But surely it must happen, due to any number of factors. Is it feasible to buy one? Are banks reluctant to mortgage non-traditional homes? Is a house fitted with working solar, etc. likely to be way too expensive (say 1.5X a comparable traditional home)? Do real estate inspectors know HOW to inspect alternate energy systems? I know price will depend on location and a number of other things, but I wonder what a modest self-sufficient homestead of a few acres would cost in maybe W. Va.? Would the usual real estate avenues be the ones to use to look for such a thing? Barb barb@meaddata.com I don't speak for LEXIS-NEXIS. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 22:15:36 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA28296; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 22:15:36 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA16787; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 22:20:14 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01022; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 03:10:49 GMT Received: from milkman.cac.psu.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00902; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 22:10:37 -0500 Received: from curtiss.cac.psu.edu by milkman.cac.psu.edu with SMTP id AA15033 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 1 Mar 1995 22:09:53 -0500 From: MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI Received: by curtiss.cac.psu.edu id ; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 22:09:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199503020309.AA03555@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> Subject: Re: Wild Cats To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 22:09:53 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <950301171731_36249111@aol.com> from "LCSkinner@aol.com" at Mar 1, 95 05:18:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2029 Status: RO X-Status: > We have a single barn cat, gets the occassional hand out and not much else. > No mice, one rat, moles dwindling. All kinds of birds (plenty of habitat). I still agree about the feeding thing. My uncle has a horse barn. IN it he has 3 nuetered cats and no mice/rats. These cats are WELL fed. > One or two cats are probably OK. A whole raft of them is trouble. Same goes > for dogs. Spay, nueter, or just kill any domestic animals that pose a danger > of uncontrolled breeding. Yes, I said kill. In our area, two people in the > last year or so have had confrontations with feral dogs. I suspect that a lot > of "coyote" damage east of the Mississippi is feral dogs. > Kill.....still goes against my nature. I do not kill anything unless it is in a direct conflict with me (a "my life or his" confrontation). I do completely agree with you about spaying and nuetering. I have been waiting to respond to the note about how someone had wild cats and wanted them to breed other wild cats. I think that is lidicrous. Feral animals are a major problem everywhere in the world. PLEASE...for your sake and the animal's sake...get those cats nuetered. 2-3 cats should take care of most rodent problems. Also, feed the poor buggers. Mousing used to be a survival technique a long time ago, but not anymore. The "instinct" (I hate that word...it make many false acusations) has been long bred out of the cat. The instinct to hunt for food that is...the instinct to hunt is still there. Cats hunt for fun and are more successful if they are well energized. *** Next subject *** Visiting/Helping other Homesteads. Does anyone have a Homestead that I could visit/help-out at this summer? I will be working and probaly only have weekends off. So, if anyone would like to have a visitor, and lives within 5-6hrs of Philadelphia, please let me know. Also, if anyone lives near Machias, or Bangor Maine...I am going there for a week in the beginning of August. Thanks...Mike From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 21:20:54 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05560; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 21:20:54 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA01464; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 20:36:52 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21845; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 01:24:51 GMT Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21826; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 20:24:49 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA17742 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 17:24:37 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Controlling mice and voles Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 17:00:02 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Lines: 20 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 802 Status: RO X-Status: I may have found the solution to our mice and vole problem. Did a little research and found that the number one factor in mice and vole problems is having a food supply nearby. So I looked around a found two things. 1. Our compost pile was too close to the garden. 2. We have been tilling unused crops into the garden, causing the rodents to dig in the garden areas. We have been keeping our animal feed in metal drums, so that is not a problem. Our hay is open though, and that is definitely attracting a few. At least the cats seem to think that is a good place to spend time. But, the big problem seems to be tilling in old crops. Guess we will try composting plants which are attracting the rodents. Thanks to everyone who made suggestions. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 17:22:14 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA27212; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 17:22:14 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA07140; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 17:21:47 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15502; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 22:18:30 GMT Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15492; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 17:18:29 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA208126306; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 17:18:26 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 17:18:26 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950301171731_36249111@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Wild Cats Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 516 Status: RO X-Status: We have a single barn cat, gets the occassional hand out and not much else. No mice, one rat, moles dwindling. All kinds of birds (plenty of habitat). One or two cats are probably OK. A whole raft of them is trouble. Same goes for dogs. Spay, nueter, or just kill any domestic animals that pose a danger of uncontrolled breeding. Yes, I said kill. In our area, two people in the last year or so have had confrontations with feral dogs. I suspect that a lot of "coyote" damage east of the Mississippi is feral dogs. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 16:18:01 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16450; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 16:18:01 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA28257; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 16:16:23 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24797; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 21:12:45 GMT Received: from rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (aixb.cmp.ilstu.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24767; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 16:12:42 -0500 Received: by rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79504; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:12:18 -0600 X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:11:52 -0600 (CST) From: Message-Id: <54715.rrosati@ilstu.edu> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Help Bank Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 329 Status: RO X-Status: My pregnant wife and I have plenty of opportunity for people who are looking for experience with things such as building fence, putting in a garden, cultivating corn, building a house addition, building a greenhouse, cutting firewood, feeding chickens, etc. We live on a 65 acre farm in central Illinois. Is anyone interested? From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 15:04:23 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA29270; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:04:23 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA15757; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:08:11 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20812; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 20:02:41 GMT Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20725; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:02:32 -0500 Received: from whistle.cellbio.duke.edu by duke.cs.duke.edu (5.65/3.10G/4.1.3) id AA08293; Wed, 1 Mar 95 15:02:25 -0500 Message-Id: Date: 1 Mar 1995 11:41:58 -0500 From: "Dan Settles" Subject: RE-RE>Wild Cats To: homestead@world.std.com X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP/QM 3.0.0 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1647 Status: O X-Status: Reply to: RE-RE>Wild Cats I have heard that the Jack Russel Terrier is a great rodent killer; supposedly better than cats. However, I don't know if they also go after birds or if they are good at catching them. Does anyone have any experience using terriers or other dogs to control rats and mice? Dan Settles -------------------------------------- Date: 3/1/95 1:49 AM To: Dan Settles From: homestead@world.std.com > I grew up on a farm like this, but I have read quite a number of articles > in recent years about the damage that cats do to songbird populations. > Apparently it's gotten so bad in Great Britain that they're in danger of > losing entire species. It sort of gave me a new perspective on my > father's lament about the disappearance of bluebirds and barn swallows > over the past thirty years. > > There are other factors as well, namely destruction of habitat in North > and Central America, but as a cat person I wonder if I should put a bell > on my cat when she leaves the barn... > > Does anyone else consider this? > You may be right but I have less rats and mice and still see lots of songbirds around here. yeah they get a few . guess I just hate rats and mice and poison and beleave me they were thick around here before the cats showed up. If you leave a little brush around and maybe a hegerow or two I think the birds will be ok. If someone comes up with a better organic way to get rid of rats and mice and gophers I may change my mind. > Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org or check out my homepage: http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 15:35:32 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18875; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:35:32 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA20924; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:35:41 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19283; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 20:35:03 GMT Received: from tntech.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19271; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:35:02 -0500 Received: from tntech.edu by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQyfez22281; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 12:20:09 -0500 Received: from tntech.edu by tntech.edu (PMDF V4.3-10 #7186) id <01HNMBHFZL8ODJ17UM@tntech.edu>; Wed, 01 Mar 1995 11:20:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 11:20:39 -0600 (CST) From: PAT LENZO Subject: Re: Wild Cats To: homestead@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HNMBHFZL8QDJ17UM@tntech.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"homestead@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 677 Status: RO X-Status: > On 03/01/95 at 08:18:56 Mike Mayer said: I would say it's always better to have a healthy > >well-fed cat around. And Bonnie said: > I would agree, and this is what I've heard from misc.rural as well. I've got 4 barn cats that I feed every morning. They kill mice, rats, miles, gophers, baby skunks, sometimes a baby rabbit, and they do kill a bird now and then. I know because they usually leave their offerings on the porch for me. Two of them come in the house sometimes for brief periods, and I pet all of them. They're all stray females from the dumpster, and I have had them spayed. (I had a population explosion the first year and ended with a high of 1!) Pat From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 15:50:23 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA28758; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:50:23 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA23573; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:49:41 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26565; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 20:43:41 GMT Received: from rain.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26549; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:43:39 -0500 Received: from coyote.rain.org by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyffd21399; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 13:27:36 -0500 Received: by coyote.rain.org(8.6.10/RAIN-1.0) with id KAA26667 for on Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:23:20 -0800 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:23:19 -0800 (PST) From: Sal Schettino To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Wild Cats In-Reply-To: <560476429C2@i1.iplan.co.za> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1664 Status: RO X-Status: sure on my homepage I have plans to build barn owl houses. they are the greatest. Also I have big trees that even though they donot produce money they serve as roots for old red tail hawk and copper. Have seen any eagles yet. ha. but your right keeping owls ans hawks happy is in keeping with good rodent control. A barn owl eats a gopher or rat every night and a pair will eat 2 throw in 3 to 6 young and that about 5 or so mice each. to bad people use poison to kill rodents because they also kill the thing that eat them and the rodents come back yet the birds are not as fast so what you are left with are rodents and no predators.. Da. not to smart. a barn owl is one of the farmers best friends . On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, Mike Morris wrote: > Sal Schettino wrote: > > > If someone comes up with a better organic > > way to get rid of rats and mice and gophers I may change my mind. > > > Are you in a position to encourage owls, hawks and/or eagles by > providing nesting sites, or anything like that? (No experience of it > myself -- just a thought.) > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > Mike Morris We do not inherit the earth > Denel Informatics (Cape) from our ancestors > Mike.Morris@iplan.co.za > ph: +27-21-788-4163 We borrow it from our children. > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org or check out my homepage: http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 11:23:46 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA12176; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:23:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA19506; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:29:50 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04544; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 16:18:49 GMT Received: from aztec.co.za by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04301; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:18:33 -0500 Received: from cthru.iplan.co.za by aztec.co.za with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #17) id m0rjr4y-000KdcC; Wed, 1 Mar 95 18:16 EET Received: from i1.iplan.co.za by cthru.iplan.co.za (4.1/SMI-4.k.1) id AA05398; Wed, 1 Mar 95 17:27:06 SAS Received: from I1/TEMPQ by i1.iplan.co.za (Mercury 1.13); Wed, 1 Mar 95 17:22:28 GMT+0200 Received: from TEMPQ by I1 (Mercury 1.13); Wed, 1 Mar 95 17:22:07 GMT+0200 From: "Mike Morris" Organization: Denel Informatics, Cape Reg Office To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 17:22:05 GMT+0200 Subject: Re: Wild Cats Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-Id: <560476429C2@i1.iplan.co.za> Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 734 Status: RO X-Status: Sal Schettino wrote: > If someone comes up with a better organic > way to get rid of rats and mice and gophers I may change my mind. > Are you in a position to encourage owls, hawks and/or eagles by providing nesting sites, or anything like that? (No experience of it myself -- just a thought.) +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Mike Morris We do not inherit the earth Denel Informatics (Cape) from our ancestors Mike.Morris@iplan.co.za ph: +27-21-788-4163 We borrow it from our children. +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 08:45:18 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA24331; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 08:45:18 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA15843; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 08:50:21 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27006; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:46:08 GMT Received: from aspen.plexus.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26980; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 08:46:06 -0500 Received: from kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com [192.217.104.107]) by aspen.plexus.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA20459 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 07:46:02 -0600 Received: by kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA15156; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 07:46:01 -0600 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 07:46:01 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Mayer X-Sender: mikem@kite.pd.tgi.plexus.com To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Wild Cats In-Reply-To: <199503020309.AA03555@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1228 Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI wrote: [snip] > Kill.....still goes against my nature. I do not kill anything unless > it is in a direct conflict with me (a "my life or his" confrontation). > I do completely agree with you about spaying and nuetering. I have > been waiting to respond to the note about how someone had wild cats > and wanted them to breed other wild cats. I think that is lidicrous. > Feral animals are a major problem everywhere in the world. [snip] I agree. Too many feral cats are sick and half blind from eye infections. I have no intention of adding to the number of such cats. The two spayed cats we have do a great job of keeping the mice down. The first was rescued from our junk pile at about 5 weeks of age, fed, eyes cleaned up, and ear mites eliminated. The second was found in front of the local school in a box. They hunt from instinct, not from hunger alone. I could take a piece of baling twine, tie a little knot in the end and shake in front of the kitten and it would pounce on it. That's instinct, not hunger. ============================================================================== Mike Mayer (414) 751-3557 Mike.Mayer@plexus.com From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 09:14:59 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA09685; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:14:59 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA19425; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:20:50 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12562; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:10:06 GMT Received: from luga.latrobe.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12539; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:10:03 -0500 Received: from lux.latrobe.edu.au (lux.latrobe.edu.au [131.172.4.3]) by luga.latrobe.edu.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA00376 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 01:09:58 +1100 Received: by lux.latrobe.edu.au (5.67a/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA08142; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 01:09:57 +1100 Message-Id: <199503021409.AA08142@lux.latrobe.edu.au> Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 01:09:56 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <5603203516B@i1.iplan.co.za> from "Mike Morris" at Mar 1, 95 05:17:05 pm From: dwayne@leri.edu (Dwayne) Organisation: NEXUS-melbourne. X-Url: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/dwayne.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 914 Status: RO X-Status: I peeled a grape, and found that Mike Morris had written upon it: : : Don Bowen wrote: : : > One problem is that the community of the Internet is spread out over : > the entire country : : No, no, Don -- the entire Planet Earth! :-) : : Still, I agree that getting together is a good idea... : (from Mike in Cape Town, South Africa, planning to move out of the : city as soon a practicality will allow.) Dwayne. -------> dwayne@leri.edu <-------- * http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/Permaculture/permaculture.html * r e t u r n t o t h e s o u r c e NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier.. mail listserv@netcom.com http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/ "subscribe nexus-gaia" Dwayne ...our.aim.is.wakefulness.our.enemy.is.dreamless.sleep... From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 09:30:27 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA17431; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:30:27 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA21211; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:36:35 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28317; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:33:06 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28289; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:33:05 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id JAA27490 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:33:01 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA26017; Thu Mar 2 09:31:41 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503021431.AA26017@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 9:31:40 EST In-Reply-To: <199503020222.AA28797@lux.latrobe.edu.au>; from "Dwayne" at Mar 2, 95 1:22 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1773 Status: RO X-Status: > > > I peeled a grape, and found that Christopher Friedenberg had written upon it: > : > : Eh? The previous example showed how technology De-stratified the classes. > : Allowing the lower classes to emulate their "superiors", etc. etc...or > : if you prefer Re-stratified...allowing those willing to master the new > : technology to become wealthy and powerful by offering goods and services > : of quality at lower cost. > > Ummmm, it takes money to build factories. A lot of the early pioneers in > the industrial revolution were rich men to start with. The drain of workers > into the city created conditions of unimaginable poverty and hardship, and > caused massive disruption in the countryside.. > > > Dwayne. > Exactly, everywhere europeans went in the world they modeled the same sick living philosophy. Lure people to the citys with the false promise of a better life. the fact that prices where low for a few more upper poor broadened the working class. Industrialism has done nothing but placate the masses and destroyed family homesteads in the rural areas thru subsidys, and corporate food factories which under cut the real cost of proper, responsible agriculture. corporate food and animal production has desimated the functional family farm. And here we are non-farmers (mostly) trying to get back what was stolen long ago, freedom to live off your own. If I had a surplus of whole organic foods, the first thing I would do is get it to the poorest folks in the city at next to nothing prices. It's these folks that need it. We working people can afford the co-ops and the expensive solar homes though the homes Andy Evans described sounded awfully expensive. I do not have anywhere near the capital to get those kinds of energy systems. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 10:15:20 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA11570; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 10:15:20 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA27073; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 10:21:20 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23190; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:05:54 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23093; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 10:05:48 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA03704 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 07:05:44 -0800 Message-Id: <199503021505.HAA03704@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 07:05:20 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Getting Together X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 848 Status: O X-Status: >Exactly, everywhere europeans went in the world they modeled the same sick >living philosophy. Lure people to the citys with the false promise of >a better life. the fact that prices where low for a few more upper poor >broadened the working class. In europe there was little private ownership of land. As te new industrialism spread to the farm, fewer people were needed to work the fields. THe reduced labor needs resulted in a fall of rural wages. People were forced to move to the cities where they became just another raw material. > Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 10:15:34 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA11686; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 10:15:34 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA27100; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 10:21:30 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00995; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:15:48 GMT Received: from rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (aixb.cmp.ilstu.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00983; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 10:15:46 -0500 Received: by rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA102271; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:15:22 -0600 X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:15:02 -0600 (CST) From: Message-Id: <33305.rrosati@ilstu.edu> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Getting Together Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 843 Status: O X-Status: > Exactly, everywhere europeans went in the world they modeled the same sick > living philosophy. Lure people to the citys with the false promise of > a better life. the fact that prices where low for a few more upper poor > broadened the working class. > Industrialism has done nothing but placate the masses and destroyed family > homesteads in the rural areas thru subsidys, and corporate food factories > which under cut the Placating "the masses" is not a bad idea. Would we recommend alienating most people? If people want to move to the city and they have the means to do so, let them go. The city is not the place for me (and I suspect the same is true for most of us on this network) but I don't have a problem with other people achieving their dreams - even if that dream is a factory job, 2.5 kids, a house in the town, etc. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 11:01:44 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA08386; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:01:44 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA03688; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:07:42 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07438; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:00:58 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07406; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:00:56 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA01027 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:00:51 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA26164; Thu Mar 2 10:59:31 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503021559.AA26164@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 10:59:30 EST In-Reply-To: <33305.rrosati@ilstu.edu>; from "rrosati@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu" at Mar 2, 95 9:15 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1649 Status: O X-Status: > > > Exactly, everywhere europeans went in the world they modeled the same sick > > living philosophy. Lure people to the citys with the false promise of > > a better life. the fact that prices where low for a few more upper poor > > broadened the working class. > > Industrialism has done nothing but placate the masses and destroyed family > > homesteads in the rural areas thru subsidys, and corporate food factories > > which under cut the > > Placating "the masses" is not a bad idea. Would we recommend alienating > most people? If people want to move to the city and they have the means to > do so, let them go. The city is not the place for me (and I suspect the > same is true for most of us on this network) but I don't have a problem with > other people achieving their dreams - even if that dream is a factory job, > 2.5 kids, a house in the town, etc. > Yeah your right I guess if folks want they can do whatever. I look at this group and its ideas as a catalist for a new mind set. And hopefully the city people can benifit by learning ways to enrich those impoverished areas by growing in the city, building lush gardens and areas where plants can produce some fresh air for people. Maybe our movement will propagate to a city model. How many times has anyone read about the folks who clean up a vacant lot for growing and getting people together to do it. I always read how good it makes them feel to commune together and see some beauty in an otherwise ugly, dirty place. thanks for the response above. I think city mgt. needs to work more with these kind of ideas. it would benifit all of us in the long run. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 11:31:52 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA01715; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:31:52 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA08258; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:37:26 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04876; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:33:07 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04819; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:33:04 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA02272 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:33:00 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA26255; Thu Mar 2 11:31:36 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503021631.AA26255@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 11:31:36 EST In-Reply-To: ; from "Matthew W. Hamel" at Mar 2, 95 11:13 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2318 Status: O X-Status: > > On Thu, 2 Mar 1995 rrosati@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu wrote: > > > > > Placating "the masses" is not a bad idea. Would we recommend alienating > > most people? If people want to move to the city and they have the means to > > do so, let them go. > > I think that most homesteading types don't really mind being viewed as > socially-challenged rural bumpkins. If they scare a few ex-urbanites > away, well that's more privacy (and cheaper land) for them. They also > turn the tables and sneer at those not willing to sacrifice their > appliances (or electricity, or city sewage, or car, or... you get the > idea) and really "rough it." Most of the original motivation for choices > homesteaders make is financial (capital). Somewhere down the line these > choices become "values" and allofasudden they become entrenched dogma. > > Case-in-point: For housing I aim to remodel/restore an older farmhouse, > possibly retrofitting some sort of superinsullation and adding a masonry > heater. Out-of-pocket cost would be for the home and the weatherizing, > with the other improvements coming later. Yep, I am making a conscious > decision to recycle an older home. I prefer the sense of history > vernacular architecture provides. No, I am not a disciple of the yurt, > earth-berm, straw bale, rammed earth dwelling. I happen not to like > those options for reasons I've just explained. But let's remember the > bottom line: $$$$$$! > > Matt Hamel > mhamel@ashland.edu > > In the Chevy Chevette of the Information Superhighway > > I like that, "socially-challenged rural bumpkins". guess I am a little socially challenged, bit of an introvert, big bit. There are many nice old places, we bought like Matt, with similar motives, I also considerd the resources that are used for a new house. Guess I'll follow the leassons of the hermit crab, find a *already-built*. The above alternatives all have to consider local climate. Can't see building a straw bail in MI. But I certainly would not rule out alternative dwellings that minimized new resource use (shades of the 70's). We do know that interior contours are better for air flow then hard angles. Matt can you describe the masonry heater you use. We have a 1100 ft2. single floor home. What is the fuel you use with one? From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 12:01:08 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA17555; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:01:08 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA13330; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:07:05 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28660; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 17:03:47 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28617; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:03:44 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id JAA16473 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:03:39 -0800 Message-Id: <199503021703.JAA16473@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 09:03:17 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Getting Together X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 877 Status: O X-Status: >How many times has anyone read about the folks who clean up a vacant lot for >growing and getting people together to do it. I always read how good it >makes them feel to commune together and see some beauty in an otherwise >ugly, dirty place. thanks for the response above. I think city mgt. >needs to work more with these kind of ideas. it would benifit all of us >in the long run. Often you read that later the city has thrown those gardens out because the lot did not belong to the gardners or the city wanted the tax revenue from another strip mall on the site. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 21:34:06 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA11279; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 21:34:06 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA10014; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 21:36:12 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01058; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 02:23:56 GMT Received: from luga.latrobe.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00429; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 21:23:06 -0500 Received: from lux.latrobe.edu.au (lux.latrobe.edu.au [131.172.4.3]) by luga.latrobe.edu.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA09734 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:22:27 +1100 Received: by lux.latrobe.edu.au (5.67a/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA28797; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:22:26 +1100 Message-Id: <199503020222.AA28797@lux.latrobe.edu.au> Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:22:25 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199502282143.QAA07611@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> from "Christopher Friedenberg" at Feb 28, 95 04:43:14 pm From: dwayne@leri.edu (Dwayne) Organisation: NEXUS-melbourne. X-Url: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/dwayne.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1140 Status: O X-Status: I peeled a grape, and found that Christopher Friedenberg had written upon it: : : Eh? The previous example showed how technology De-stratified the classes. : Allowing the lower classes to emulate their "superiors", etc. etc...or : if you prefer Re-stratified...allowing those willing to master the new : technology to become wealthy and powerful by offering goods and services : of quality at lower cost. Ummmm, it takes money to build factories. A lot of the early pioneers in the industrial revolution were rich men to start with. The drain of workers into the city created conditions of unimaginable poverty and hardship, and caused massive disruption in the countryside.. Dwayne. -------> dwayne@leri.edu <-------- * http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/Permaculture/permaculture.html * r e t u r n t o t h e s o u r c e NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier.. mail listserv@netcom.com http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/ "subscribe nexus-gaia" Dwayne ...our.aim.is.wakefulness.our.enemy.is.dreamless.sleep... From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 16:45:20 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA13536; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:45:20 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA22311; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:50:38 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17726; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:47:48 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17689; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:47:45 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA17372 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:47:41 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA27178; Thu Mar 2 16:46:20 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503022146.AA27178@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Favorite Catalogs To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 16:46:20 EST In-Reply-To: <199503022055.MAA27312@qualcomm.com>; from "Don Bowen" at Mar 02, 95 12:54 (noon) Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 360 Status: RO X-Status: If anyone is intereste here in SW MICHIGAN, the place for organic herbs and trees and anything else the good mother grows for us. the catalog is 2.50 and with SAE you'll also get a brochure on growing tips. Write to: Renaissance Acres Organic Herb Farm 4450 Valantine Rd. Whitmore Lake, MI 48189 From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sat Mar 4 20:19:17 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA04984; Sat, 4 Mar 1995 20:19:17 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA24595; Sat, 4 Mar 1995 16:05:16 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01732; Sat, 4 Mar 1995 21:04:16 GMT Received: from aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01723; Sat, 4 Mar 1995 16:04:15 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQyfpy10963; Sat, 4 Mar 1995 11:39:19 -0500 From: LynnHWeg@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA008285085; Sat, 4 Mar 1995 11:38:05 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 11:38:05 -0500 Message-Id: <950304113805_39041605@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Different Approach Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1848 Status: RO X-Status: Barb - Buying an already operating self-sufficient homestead is no more impossible than buying a working ranch/farm. It happens because of financial problems, divorce, illness, burnout, etc., but they definitely are not a plentiful as your average urban/suburban single-family unit. Places to look are classified ads in homesteading magazines, like Mother Earth News, Countryside, etc.; also magazines and farm/ranch/rural real estate brokers' publications. One of these is United Farm Agency, which has an 800#, and will forward flyers on places available in whatever state you want. They will also pass your name onto the nearest United agent to you - or you could ask them for his/her #. This is how we bought one place we owned and how we made plans on which part of another state we wanted to look for prospective land. We got the flyers, compared prices, types of land available, called some of the brokers, and lined up places to look at when we arrived. A homestead is a major investment and should only be done after extensive search, visits, family discussions (do you want to be isolated or community-oriented, do you want fruits orchards or animals or gardens or all 3, etc) and possibly spending time on working homesteads. Some things, like priming a frozen-up pump by flashlight in below zero weather, don't seem to be part of most people's dreams but can be very much part of the reality of homesteading life. If you're the type who uses the yellow pages for repair, you may find that homesteading in the boonies is not your cup of tea. However, having a "gentleman's half-acre" in the outskirts of an urban area could be a choice. I'm probably telling some things you already know, but re-inforcement and fresh viewpoints is one reason I've signed onto the "homestead" list. I wish you success in your search. Lynn From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 5 10:35:59 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA17373; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:35:59 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA12597; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:35:34 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09028; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 15:34:26 GMT Received: from tntech.edu (gemini.tntech.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08933; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:34:24 -0500 Received: from tntech.edu by tntech.edu (PMDF V4.3-10 #7186) id <01HNRT7UNN8GDLHSNS@tntech.edu>; Sun, 05 Mar 1995 09:36:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 1995 09:36:44 -0600 (CST) From: PAT LENZO Subject: Re: Catalogs To: homestead@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HNRT7UP93MDLHSNS@tntech.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"homestead@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 392 Status: RO X-Status: > One to look for is the Southern States Cooperative catalog. It's mostly farm > equipment, but has a number of food preservation supplies, including the Back > To Basics grain mill. Also, comparing it with Cumberland General Store, I've > found the prices to be less. Can someone provide an address of phone # for this catalogue? I've never heard of them and I'm in a southern state. Pat From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 5 10:22:06 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA14321; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:22:06 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA11951; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:20:25 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25774; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 15:11:03 GMT Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25633; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:11:00 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA075656254; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:10:54 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:10:54 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950305101054_39758165@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Economists adn the economy Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 682 Status: RO X-Status: You're probably right, Matt. Bu the fact remains that 70% of the US lives from paycheck to paycheck. When you stop to realize that that figure includes people making $100K+ a year, it gets pretty scary. I do know that the last two years were the best in terms of eanings I've had in my 19 years in the workforce. And we struggled. Seems like the more I made, the bigger the bills were. And for the record, I do not have credit cards, or car payments, or any term payments. Just paid rent and utilities, bought food, clothing (not much; I wear out my clothes, and only need a couple pairs of jeans and a handful of shirts), gas and maint. on the car. It's not a nice world anymore. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 5 10:21:54 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA14262; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:21:54 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA11930; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:20:18 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26727; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 15:11:20 GMT Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26403; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:11:15 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA076006270; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:11:10 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:11:10 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950305101109_39758274@aol.com> To: Homestead@world.std.com Subject: Catalogs Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 264 Status: RO X-Status: One to look for is the Southern States Cooperative catalog. It's mostly farm equipment, but has a number of food preservation supplies, including the Back To Basics grain mill. Also, comparing it with Cumberland General Store, I've found the prices to be less. L From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 5 10:21:54 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA14262; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:21:54 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA11930; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:20:18 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26727; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 15:11:20 GMT Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26403; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:11:15 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA076006270; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:11:10 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:11:10 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950305101109_39758274@aol.com> To: Homestead@world.std.com Subject: Catalogs Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 264 Status: RO X-Status: D One to look for is the Southern States Cooperative catalog. It's mostly farm equipment, but has a number of food preservation supplies, including the Back To Basics grain mill. Also, comparing it with Cumberland General Store, I've found the prices to be less. L From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 5 10:22:06 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA14321; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:22:06 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA11951; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:20:25 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25774; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 15:11:03 GMT Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25633; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:11:00 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA075656254; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:10:54 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:10:54 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950305101054_39758165@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Economists adn the economy Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 682 Status: RO X-Status: D You're probably right, Matt. Bu the fact remains that 70% of the US lives from paycheck to paycheck. When you stop to realize that that figure includes people making $100K+ a year, it gets pretty scary. I do know that the last two years were the best in terms of eanings I've had in my 19 years in the workforce. And we struggled. Seems like the more I made, the bigger the bills were. And for the record, I do not have credit cards, or car payments, or any term payments. Just paid rent and utilities, bought food, clothing (not much; I wear out my clothes, and only need a couple pairs of jeans and a handful of shirts), gas and maint. on the car. It's not a nice world anymore. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 5 00:04:01 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18898; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 00:04:01 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA19231; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 00:03:27 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20937; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 04:35:08 GMT Received: from mail.crl.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20916; Sat, 4 Mar 1995 23:35:06 -0500 Received: from [165.113.1.12] (crl5.crl.com) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA04198 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 4 Mar 1995 20:33:35 -0800 X-Sender: ckraft@mail.crl.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 20:36:22 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: ckraft@crl.com (Clint Kraft) Subject: Re: community gardens (was: Getting Together) Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 928 Status: RO X-Status: Donald wrote: > Some do survive but some don't and pass on to other things. One of >my favorite garden catalogs started as a community garden in San Jose CA. >The garden was taken away and converted into a parking lot. The founders >bought land in Willits and started some research gardens and a mail order >catalog. They are know as Bountiful Gardens. There is also a garden shop >in Palo Alto that I have not seen. They are located about a half mile from >my mother place and I hope to make a trip there this summer. The garden shop is called Commonground, I've been going there for 12 years. Commonground and, I believe, Bountiful Gardens are run by John Jeavon's Ecology Action. Matter of fact, I'm attending a three day seminar with them Mar 10-12 in Willits on Sustainable Biointensive Mini-Farming. Ecology Action is an excellent resource: Ecology Action 5798 Ridgewood Road Willits, CA 95490-9730 clint From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 5 00:18:59 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23246; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 00:18:59 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA20398; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 00:20:35 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13143; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 05:11:18 GMT Received: from stusys.eepo.dialix.oz.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13091; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 00:11:16 -0500 Received: from prime.eepo.com.au by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyfrw28589; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 00:10:26 -0500 Received: from cessysv.eepo.com.au (cessysv.eepo.com.au [203.5.184.4]) by prime.eepo.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA00950 for <@mailhost.eepo.com.au:homestead@world.std.com>; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 13:06:11 +0800 Received: from stusys.eepo.dialix.oz.au by cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au id aa23248; 5 Mar 95 13:09 WST Received: by stusys.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (UUPC/extended 1.12b); Thu, 02 Mar 1995 06:02:32 WST X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 06:02:30 WST From: Stuart Morrison Message-Id: <2f54eef8.stusys@stusys.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Solar Info Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 431 Status: RO X-Status: e-mail info@crest.org ftp solstice.crest.org gopher gopher.crest.org MAiling List for alternative Energy Send a message to: listserv@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu No subject subscribe ae The owner of the list is Clyde Visser cvisser@ucrmath.ucr.edu Good Luck -- -- Stuart Morrison stuart@stusys.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au Perth Western Australia. Why didn't I think of that? From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 5 15:53:22 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA01834; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 15:53:22 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA04589; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 15:51:36 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29158; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 20:36:09 GMT Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29051; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 15:36:01 -0500 Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA22540; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 15:29:21 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 15:29:20 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: Stuart Morrison Cc: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Solar Info In-Reply-To: <2f54eef8.stusys@stusys.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 9623 Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, Stuart Morrison wrote: > e-mail info@crest.org > ftp solstice.crest.org > gopher gopher.crest.org > > MAiling List for alternative Energy > Send a message to: > > listserv@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu > No subject > subscribe ae > > The owner of the list is Clyde Visser > cvisser@ucrmath.ucr.edu - There's also: Renewable Energy Mailing List From: Almanac Information Server Reply to: owner-almanac@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: RE: (null) -------- ## Regarding your request: subscribe renew-energy Dear Subscriber, Your subscription has been accepted by almanac@ces.ncsu.edu. Welcome to the list! Below are instructions on how to use Almanac e-mail lists. Please save this message so that you will have instructions on how to send a message or leave this list. TO SUBSCRIBE TO THE LIST send e-mail to almanac@ces.ncsu.edu with the message: subscribe renew-energy TO SEND A MESSAGE to everyone subscribed to the list, send e-mail to renew-energy@ces.ncsu.edu TO UNSUBSCRIBE, send e-mail to almanac@ces.ncsu.edu with the message: unsubscribe renew-energy TO RECEIVE MORE INFORMATION, on Almanac commands send e-mail to almanac@ces.ncsu.edu with the message: send guide Electronically yours, The Almanac System Administrator for NCCES e-mail: ________________________________________________ Lawrence F. London, Jr. - london@sunSITE.unc.edu ------------------------------------------------ renew-energy and other newsgroups and lists are archived at sunSITE.unc.edu see below: - Accessing Selected Resources At sunSITE.unc.edu ----------------------------------------------- WAIS (available via telnet, follow login instructions) World Wide Web (lynx available via telnet for vt100 users) URL for sustainable agriculture is: gopher://sunsite.unc.edu/11/.pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/ URL for rural skills is: gopher://sunsite.unc.edu/11/.pub/academic/agriculture/rural-skills * [homesteading, survivalism, food-preservation and related archives are located in this directory] URL for energy resources is: gopher://sunsite.unc.edu/11/.pub/academic/environment/alternative-energy/energy-resources URL for alternative healthcare is: gopher://sunsite.unc.edu/11/.pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare URL for pesticide education is: gopher://sunsite.unc.edu/11/.pub/academic/environment/pesticide-education Anonymous FTP Ftpmail (Send e-mail to ftpmail@sunsite.unc.edu for help file on ftpmail usage) Gopher Type=1+ Name=Sustainable Agriculture Information Path=1/sunsite.d/sus-ag.d Host=president.oit.unc.edu Port=70 Admin=Jonathan Magid and Chris Colomb, 919-962-6501 ModDate=Thu Dec 29 22:05:36 1994 <19941229220536> URL: gopher://president.oit.unc.edu:70/11/sunsite.d/sus-ag.d Navigating FTP Directories and Gopher Menus: -------------------------------------------- Anonymous ftp: ftp sunSITE.unc.edu Login: anonymous Password: (enter your Internet E-Mail ID) cd pub/academic cd agriculture/sustainable_agriculture cd gardening/gardening-faqs cd pub/academic/agriculture/rural-skills cd pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare cd pub/academic/environment/alternative-energy/energy-resources cd pub/academic/environment/pesticide-education Gopher: The Worlds of sunSITE Sustainable Agriculture Information gardening gardening-faqs links to: Rural Skills: etc. Alternative Energy Alternative Healthcare Pesticide Education - other Gopher sites with ag/gardening information The Worlds of SunSITE browse sunSITE archives academic agriculture sustainable_agriculture gardening gardening-faqs rural-skills The Worlds of sunSITE browse sunSITE archives academic environment alternative energy energy-resources pesticide-education The Worlds of sunSITE browse sunSITE archives academic medicine alternative healthcare Information contained in the Archives: -------------------------------------- Newsgroup, mailing-list, newsletter archives/documents/FAQs on sustainable agriculture, permaculture, IPM, landscaping, gardening, farming, rural skills, horticulture, metalworking, woodworking, weather, housebuilding, food, cooking, nutrition, ecology, environment, pesticide education, health and safety, survivalism, beekeeping, food preservation, alternative: healthcare, energy, architecture, housing, communities and many other related topics. Documents on these subjects (partial list): ------------------------------------------- historic food food preserving survivalism, health, safety, first-aid sourdough bread-yoghurt-kraut-fermented foods vegetarian cooking alternative architecture alternative/co-housing, sustainable/intentional communities - co-operatives alternative healthcare health and safety faqs sustainable agriculture gardening-farming-rural life gardening faqs landscaping-landscape architecture permaculture integrated pest management hydrology meteorology beekeeping hydroponics biological pest control bioremediation aquaculture guides to Internet agriculture/healthcare/environment/biology resources homeopathy ayurveda nutrition meditation FAQs for these newsgroups (partial list): ----------------------------------------- rec.gardens (/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/gardening/gardening-FAQs) misc.rural (/agriculture/rural-skills/faqs) rec.food.sourdough (/agriculture/rural-skills/food/sourdough/faqs) rec.food.veg (/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs) rec.crafts.metalworking (/agriculture/rural-skills/metalworking/faqs) rec.woodworking (/agriculture/rural-skills/woodworking/faqs) alternative energy (/environment/alternative-energy/miscellaneous) sci.energy.hydrogen (/environment/alternative-energy/miscellaneous) alt.meditation (/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs) alt.co-ops (/environment/energy-resources/faqs alt.housing.nontrad (/environment/energy-resources/faqs alt.folklore.herbs (/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs) sci.life-extension (/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs) vegetarian (/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs) sci.agriculture.beekeeping (/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/beekeeping/faqs misc.survivalism (/agriculture/rural-skills/survivalism/faqs) rec.food.preserving (/agriculture/rural-skills/food/food-preserving/faqs) alt.backrubs (/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs) alt.med.allergy (/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs) alt.support.asthma (medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs) Mailing lists of interest: -------------------------- List name: sustag-public (sustainable agriculture) Server: almanac@ces.ncsu.edu Post articles to: sustag-public@ces.ncsu.edu List name: sanet-mg (Sustainable Agriculture Network mail group) Server: almanac@ces.ncsu.edu Post articles to: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu List name: forage-mg (forage crops) Server: almanac@oes.orst.edu Post articles to: forage-mg@oes.orst.edu List name: forage-quality-mg (forage crop quality) Server: almanac@oes.orst.edu Post articles to: forage-quality-mg@oes.orst.edu List name: ipm-mg (integrated pest management) Server: almanac@ces.ncsu.edu Post articles to: ipm-mg@ces.ncsu.edu List name: permaculture-mg (permaculture) Server: almanac@ces.ncsu.edu Post articles to: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu List name: agmetnet (meteorology) Server: almanac@awis.auburn.edu Post articles to: agmetnet@awis.auburn.edu Also available from almanac@ces.ncsu.edu: ----------------------------------------- renew-energy (Renewable Energy), renew-energy@ces.ncsu.edu nc-solar (North Carolina Solar Energy Resources), nc-solar@ces.ncsu.edu Additional mailing lists of interest: ------------------------------------- [/net-resources will contain more information on many of these lists] wetnet soils-l agmodels-l agric-l envst-l grasses bee-l dairy-l hydro-l devel-l indknow-l aqua-l maxlife marine-l gardens-l cohousing-l pot-mod-l trickle-l mgarden-l lakes-l sustag-l agenvir-l, homestead-l Newsletters (partial list): --------------------------- American Garden Newsletter ipmnet-news aanews aosa.news ben panups safefood-news susag-news vita-news altag-news apis attranews-digest cgiar-news csas-news food-safety-week handsnet-news leopold-center-news wsaa-news ....and many others Archives of articles in these Usenet newsgroups: ------------------------------------------------ sci.agriculture sci.agriculture.beekeeping alt.sustainable.agriculture alt.agriculture.misc alt.agriculture.fruit rec.ponds sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera alt.landscape.architecture rec.gardens misc.rural rec.food.preservation misc.survivalism sci.bio sci.bio.ecology sci.geo.geology sci.geo.meteorology sci.geo.hydrology sci.aquaria rec.aquaria bionet plants bionet mycology bionet.biology.grasses bionet photosynthesis bionet cellbiology bionet general bionet.agroforestry bionet.n2-fixation bionet.biology.tropical alt.architecture.alternative alt.housing.nontrad sci.energy sci.energy.hydrogen alt.energy.renewable misc.health.alternative alt.aromatherapy sci.life-extension alt.health.ayurveda alt.folklore.gemstones alt.folklore.herbs alt.co-evolution alt.meditation alt.consciousness.mysticism rec.food.veg rec.food.veg.cooking sci.med.nutrition alt.food.fat-free alt.support.asthma alt.med.allergy For more information contact: Lawrence F. London, Jr. london@sunSITE.unc.edu From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 5 20:46:59 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA22985; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 20:46:59 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA27534; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 20:50:19 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28455; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 01:46:21 GMT Received: from tntech.edu (gemini.tntech.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28444; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 20:46:20 -0500 Received: from tntech.edu by tntech.edu (PMDF V4.3-10 #7186) id <01HNSEITZASWDLISPA@tntech.edu>; Sun, 05 Mar 1995 19:48:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 1995 19:48:38 -0600 (CST) From: PAT LENZO Subject: Re: catalogs To: homestead@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HNSEIU0WO2DLISPA@tntech.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"homestead@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 432 Status: RO X-Status: > After a frantic search, I cannot find either my Lehanms or > Cumberland General Store catalogs. They are around but not around where I > am. I di find the following catalogs that may be interesting to you. Don, It's nice to know that others are no better organized than I am. Now if someone will just tell me that their floor has been swept, but has needed mopping for several weeks, I'll know I'm normal. ;-{ Pat From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 5 19:52:02 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03400; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 19:52:02 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA22929; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 19:50:52 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01820; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 00:40:04 GMT Received: from rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (aixb.cmp.ilstu.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01811; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 19:40:02 -0500 Received: by rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA73216; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 18:39:37 -0600 X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 18:39:11 -0600 (CST) From: Message-Id: <67154.rrosati@ilstu.edu> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: RE: Wild cats & dogs Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 391 Status: RO X-Status: "My neighbors know that any dog without a collar, or any dog causing trouble (running deer, killing livestock) gets shot." Sometimes the dog we see as a chicken killer is seen by our neighbors children as their well loved Spot. I've found that if I grab my telephone first instead of my shotgun I can often get dog problems solved without causing long term bad feelings between neighbors. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Sun Mar 5 21:49:34 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15377; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 21:49:34 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA02188; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 21:50:55 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27468; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 02:43:50 GMT Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27449; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 21:43:49 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA078767823; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 21:43:43 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 21:43:43 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950305214343_40315366@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Catalogs Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 92 Status: RO X-Status: Southern States is at: Southern States Catalog Services P.O. Box 26234 richmond, VA 23260 From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 6 00:03:03 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA06972; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 00:03:03 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA08380; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 17:06:34 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15682; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 22:04:10 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15667; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 17:04:09 -0500 Received: from happy.qualcomm.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQyfuj22342; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 16:23:57 -0500 Received: from smtphost-t2.qualcomm.com (sddc-annex.qualcomm.com [129.46.54.5]) by happy.qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-BSD-2.5) with SMTP id NAA14285 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 1995 13:21:21 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 13:21:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199503052121.NAA14285@happy.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: catalogs Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1469 Status: RO X-Status: After a frantic search, I cannot find either my Lehanms or Cumberland General Store catalogs. They are around but not around where I am. I di find the following catalogs that may be interesting to you. Bountiful Gardens has been mentioned, It is an organic garndening catalog with many open polinated varities. Bountiful Gardens 18001 Shafer Ranch Road Willits CA 95490 (707)459-6410 Centaur Forge Ltd sells blacksmith supplies and tools. They lean mainly toward horshoeing but there is a large collection of tools. I am looking for an anvil but I cannot afford the ones in the catalog plus shipping. ($1000+) Centaur Forge Ltd 117 North Spring Street Burlingtin, WI 53105 (414) 763-9175 Lindsay Publications has two catalogs of books. Many are reprints of technical books of the 20's and 30's. The metal working book catalog has several books on building your own machine shop from scrap aluminum. The technical book has a section on Tesla coils. These books are good and are well worth the money. Lindsay Publications Inc. P.O. Box 538 Bradley IL 60915 (815)935-5353 I will post the other addresses if I ever see tham again. Don Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center, CA c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software engineer, woodworker, farm boy, beekeeper 1936 Farmall 12 1966 Corvair Corsa 140 Convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 acres, no TV, 24 hrs From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 6 17:28:17 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA09874; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 17:28:17 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA20977; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 17:29:44 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15982; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 17:29:43 -0500 Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15940; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 17:29:40 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA04685 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 17:29:31 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA01187; Mon Mar 6 17:27:56 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503062227.AA01187@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Economy, etc To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Mon, 6 Mar 95 17:27:56 EST In-Reply-To: <199503062204.RAA07687@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu>; from "Christopher Friedenberg" at Mar 6, 95 5:04 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2067 Status: RO X-Status: > "It is interesting, as we watch the careers of these New Men to draw > a few generalizations concerning them. For these were an entirely new > class of economically important persons. Peter Onions, who invented > the puddling process was an obscure foreman; Arkwright was a barber, > Benjamin Huntsman, the steel pioneer, was originally a maker of clocks; > Mauldslay, who invented the automatic screw machine, was a bright young > mechanic at the Woolrich Arsenal. None of the great industrial pioneers > came of noble lineage; and with few exceptions such as Matthew Boulton, > none even possessed money capital. In agriculture, the new revolutionary > methods of scientific farming enjoyed aristocratic patronage and leader- > ship, especially from the famous Jethro Tull and Lord Townshend; but > in industry, the lead went to men of humble origin and descent." > > --Robert Heilbroner > "The Industrial Revolution" > _The Making of Economic Society_ > > > National Capital of Great Britain > (in percent) > 1812 1885 > Landed Inheritance 63.5 23.3 > Buildings 14.9 22.1 > Capital (linked to 19.8 48.9 > development) > Public Property 1.8 5.7 > > --Deane & Cole > _British Economic Growth 1688-1959_ > > > And if you're _really_ interested, the socioeconomic origins > of the early industrialists has been exhaustive tabulated and > analysed in _The First Industrialists_ by Francois Crouzet > (Cambridge University Press) > Also very readable is Paul Montoux's _The Industrial Revolution > in the Eighteenth Century_, _Capitalism and the Historians_, ed. > F. Hayek. > Hope this helps. > > Cheers, > Christopher > I just have one question, where DID moneys come from for large scale production of inventions? And who ultimately owned the patents ? From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 6 18:56:05 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA21041; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 18:56:05 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA06071; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 19:00:15 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07967; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 19:00:15 -0500 Received: from oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07950; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 19:00:13 -0500 Received: (from cfrieden@localhost) by oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id TAA21054 for homestead@world.std.com; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 19:00:08 -0500 From: Christopher Friedenberg Message-Id: <199503070000.TAA21054@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: Economy, etc To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 19:00:08 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9503062227.AA01187@pms923.pms.ford.com> from "Karl Henning" at Mar 6, 95 05:27:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1299 Status: RO X-Status: > I just have one question, where DID moneys come > from for large scale production > of inventions? And who ultimately owned the patents ? Karl, That's two questions! :) In the first case, I think you're assuming that large-scale production began as large-scale production which would have required large capital investment... In fact, large-scale production began as small-scale production, often one or two small machines that were so efficient that they could easily pay for themselves and more and more and more. Very little initial capital required. From Heilbroner again: "Despite an iron-clad patent, they [Boulton and Watt, steam-engine] charged for their engines only the basic cost of the machine and installation plus one-third the saving in fuel which the customer got. Some like Joseph Wedgewood, founder of the great china works, actually refused on principle, to take out patents. But most of them did not display such fine sensibilities." [e.g Arkwright, Huntsman, Walker, Wilkinson, et al., apparently.] which I hope answers your second question. As ever, Christopher (who really isn't _that_ interested in the Industrial Revolution, but...I do think economics are one of the basic tools of homesteading. The economics of organic gardening, for example...) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 6 21:54:32 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA08868; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:54:32 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA24557; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:53:16 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29684; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:53:16 -0500 Received: from prime.eepo.com.au ([203.5.184.1]) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28985; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:51:53 -0500 Received: from cessysv.eepo.com.au (cessysv.eepo.com.au [203.5.184.4]) by prime.eepo.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA00769 for <@mailhost.eepo.com.au:homestead@world.std.com>; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:31:52 +0800 Received: from bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au by cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au id aa07285; 7 Mar 95 10:33 WST Received: by bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (UUPC/extended 1.11n); Tue, 07 Mar 1995 09:42:35 WST X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1 Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 09:42:33 WST From: Warwick Rowell Message-Id: <2f5bba0b.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Economics of Organic Gardening Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1230 Status: RO X-Status: Couldn't resist this offer! A colleague and I have done the sums for putting a Permaculture Garden on a suburban block in Perth; about 400sm of planting area, in a climate that is on the border of temperate, Mediterranean and arid, with ground glass masquarading as soil. We calculated roughly that a family could save about $60/week in food and ancillary costs if they had a really good permaculture garden. Then we did the sums: $3000 after tax a year, $5000 pre tax a year, the equivalent of about $80,000 capital invested at current interest rates. If you paid someone to give you a "turn key" garden, it would cost about $8000. If you did it yourself, and looked for bargain plants, did your own propogating etc, you could probably build this garden for less than $1000, for the expensive fruit and nut trees. Where is the best place to invest your money?? Does the investment industry tell us this?? -- __________________________________________________________ | warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au | | | | Management Consultant Permaculture Designer | |_"Helping Managers Learn"___"Helping Land Managers Learn"_| From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 6 21:48:36 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA06547; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:48:36 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA24521; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:52:59 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29522; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:52:59 -0500 Received: from milkman.cac.psu.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29501; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:52:57 -0500 Received: from wileypost.cac.psu.edu by milkman.cac.psu.edu with SMTP id AA29255 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:52:51 -0500 From: MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI Received: by wileypost.cac.psu.edu id ; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:52:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199503070252.AA17843@wileypost.cac.psu.edu> Subject: Re: Favorite homestead tool To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:52:50 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Owens" at Mar 6, 95 06:30:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1105 Status: RO X-Status: > Thought it might be interesting to share our favorite > homestead tool. We have been using it constantly for years. > Originally it was supplied to volunteers for building trails > in a local park. I was so amazed by the tool that I had one > made for myself. The tool is simply a light weight shovel > turned into a hoe. The blade is turned 90 degrees and welded > in place. I have one that I got from a military store. It is hard to explain, but it made of two pieces. The handle, which is threaded at the bottom and has a pivot point. And the Shovel part which has a normal head and a pick head. Both of the heads are 180degrees from each other...(See diagram). It converts to 1 of three positions. It doesn't seem that complicated to build. H A N D L E / / [=] |-| Pick Head=====Shovel Head The parts that looks like [=] screws up and down. This locks it into place. It is either the thing diagramed, a normal shove, or a "poking stick" I hope this makes sense to everyone...if not, just let me know. - Mike From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 6 20:58:50 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16652; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 20:58:50 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA19732; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:02:06 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28898; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:02:05 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28880; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:02:02 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA00324 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 18:01:55 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Favorite homestead tool Date: Mon, 06 Mar 1995 18:30:18 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199503062204.RAA07687@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> Lines: 19 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 959 Status: RO X-Status: Thought it might be interesting to share our favorite homestead tool. We have been using it constantly for years. Originally it was supplied to volunteers for building trails in a local park. I was so amazed by the tool that I had one made for myself. The tool is simply a light weight shovel turned into a hoe. The blade is turned 90 degrees and welded in place. It that doesn't sound too useful, try digging out a small tree sometime using a regular shovel. Then try the shovel-hoe, it goes though the roots easily and laughs at tough ground. It is also good for weeding, making furrows, digging out brush, and making holes. If you sharpen it up, then big trees can be dug out by chopping up the roots. But beware, I have got it stuck a couple inches in a stump and it is the devil to get out. What it is most used for is to move dirt short distances. You can scrape the top soil off for deep tilling very fast. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 09:11:28 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23250; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:11:28 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA06283; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:06:34 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21496; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:06:36 -0500 Received: from rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (aixb.cmp.ilstu.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21466; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:06:34 -0500 Received: by rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA129010; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 08:06:08 -0600 X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 08:05:51 -0600 (CST) From: Message-Id: <29154.rrosati@ilstu.edu> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: RE: Favorite homestead tool Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 376 Status: RO X-Status: ..> made for myself. The tool is simply a light weight shovel > turned into a hoe. The blade is turned 90 degrees and welded > in place. It that doesn't sound too useful, try digging out > a small tree sometime using a regular shovel. Then try the When working in Indonesia I often came across this tool as the primary hand tool for preparing rice paddies for planting. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 10:03:27 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA13648; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:03:27 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA12987; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:03:52 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00719; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:03:52 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00703; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:03:50 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id HAA16292 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:03:43 -0800 Message-Id: <199503071503.HAA16292@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 07:03:20 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1081 Status: RO X-Status: >Then we did the sums: $3000 after tax a year, $5000 pre tax a year, >the equivalent of about $80,000 capital invested at current interest >rates. > >If you paid someone to give you a "turn key" garden, it would cost >about $8000. If you did it yourself, and looked for bargain plants, >did your own propogating etc, you could probably build this garden >for less than $1000, for the expensive fruit and nut trees. > >Where is the best place to invest your money?? Does the investment >industry tell us this?? Careful bulk purchases and doing what you can yourself is one of the best investments you can make. For every $10 saved at 15% tax bracket, you really save $11.76. In the 30% you save $14.29. Where else do you get a %15-%30 return on every transaction Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 03:40:04 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03660; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 03:40:04 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA17434; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 17:04:48 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27981; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 17:04:38 -0500 Received: from oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27937; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 17:04:34 -0500 Received: (from cfrieden@localhost) by oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id RAA07687; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 17:04:29 -0500 From: Christopher Friedenberg Message-Id: <199503062204.RAA07687@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> Subject: Economy, etc To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 17:04:28 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199503040201.AA20025@lux.latrobe.edu.au> from "Dwayne" at Mar 4, 95 01:01:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 3150 Status: RO X-Status: Christopher Friedenberg > : Dwayne@leri.edu: dw> Ummmm, it takes money to build factories. A lot of the early pioneers in dw> the industrial revolution were rich men to start with. cf: Oh, really? Actually, almost every major industrial pioneer was somewhere cf: between poor to middle-class. Edison, Hall, Bell, Pemberton, Rockefeller, cf: Carnegie, Land....you know, innovators. Two words: venture capital. dw> Umm. Two words: Industrial Revolution. Here's three: Early Eighteenth dw> Century. There's more to history than recent US history, you know. Hmm. Early Eighteenth Century...? "Previously to 1760 the old industrial system obtained in England; none of the great mechanical inventions had been introduced; the agrarian changes were still in the future..." Toynbee, _The Industrial Revolution_ You realise, of course, that the Luddites were a Ninteenth Century phenomena...? cf: The classically wealthy were the last people to take part in the Industrial cf: Revolution. The rural landowners. This led to their decline and dissolution. dw> Please provide examples from the beginning of the industrial rvolution, not dw> examples from the industrialisation of the united states in the latter part dw> of the nineteenth century. Rememebr, we were discussing Ludd. "It is interesting, as we watch the careers of these New Men to draw a few generalizations concerning them. For these were an entirely new class of economically important persons. Peter Onions, who invented the puddling process was an obscure foreman; Arkwright was a barber, Benjamin Huntsman, the steel pioneer, was originally a maker of clocks; Mauldslay, who invented the automatic screw machine, was a bright young mechanic at the Woolrich Arsenal. None of the great industrial pioneers came of noble lineage; and with few exceptions such as Matthew Boulton, none even possessed money capital. In agriculture, the new revolutionary methods of scientific farming enjoyed aristocratic patronage and leader- ship, especially from the famous Jethro Tull and Lord Townshend; but in industry, the lead went to men of humble origin and descent." --Robert Heilbroner "The Industrial Revolution" _The Making of Economic Society_ National Capital of Great Britain (in percent) 1812 1885 Landed Inheritance 63.5 23.3 Buildings 14.9 22.1 Capital (linked to 19.8 48.9 development) Public Property 1.8 5.7 --Deane & Cole _British Economic Growth 1688-1959_ And if you're _really_ interested, the socioeconomic origins of the early industrialists has been exhaustive tabulated and analysed in _The First Industrialists_ by Francois Crouzet (Cambridge University Press) Also very readable is Paul Montoux's _The Industrial Revolution in the Eighteenth Century_, _Capitalism and the Historians_, ed. F. Hayek. Hope this helps. Cheers, Christopher From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 02:04:46 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA29983; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 02:04:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA20130; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:06:40 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01183; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:06:34 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00616; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:05:28 -0500 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA171301914; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:05:14 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:05:14 -0500 From: Tstahl@aol.com Message-Id: <950306210407_41349607@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Organization, lack of Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 238 Status: RO X-Status: We are organized enough to find what we need and to (usually) have clean clothes. However,mopping the floor for the 16th time of the day seems a fairly inefficent use of time to me.Its not going to stay clean until the mud dries anyway. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 12:31:14 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA21190; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 12:31:14 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA04083; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 12:32:35 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11341; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 12:32:36 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11304; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 12:32:33 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA04734 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:32:27 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 08:57:27 -0500 Message-Id: <7P6NlS9cp6D8069yn@teleport.com> In-Reply-To: <2f5bba0b.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au> Lines: 20 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 891 Status: RO X-Status: > warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au wrote: > We calculated roughly that a family could save about $60/week in > food and ancillary costs if they had a really good permaculture > garden. > > Where is the best place to invest your money?? Does the investment > industry tell us this?? Yes, and if you merge that permaculture garden with some conservation, and some self sufficiency in other areas, then you have the ideal investment. Specifically, investing in knowledge, renewable food and energy sources, and a lifestyle that is not consumer driven. It seems strange to me that we spend fortunes on recreation, but the joy of walking around an orchard in spring is never advertised. Having a pantry full of home grown food provides a marvelous feeling of accomplishment, is very healthy, and low cost, but how often do you hear this idea promoted? Sigh... Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 13:02:09 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA07818; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:02:09 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA07778; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:01:46 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07384; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:01:47 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07310; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:01:43 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id KAA10243 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:00:55 -0800 Message-Id: <199503071800.KAA10243@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 10:00:30 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2058 Status: RO X-Status: >Yes, and if you merge that permaculture garden with some conservation, >and some self sufficiency in other areas, then you have the ideal >investment. Specifically, investing in knowledge, renewable food >and energy sources, and a lifestyle that is not consumer driven. The best investments are knlowledge and tools. Knowledge obtained from practice, reading, and instriction are all very good investments. Good tools are another. Getting the best quality tools you can afford will return more than the best money investments. >It seems strange to me that we spend fortunes on recreation, but >the joy of walking around an orchard in spring is never advertised. The satisfaction of doing for oneself is not advertised because there is little money transfer. Look at walking. A simple activity now has magazines, expensive walking shoes, name brand clothing, group events with entry fees and tee shirts. What is wrong with an old pair of sweats and a walk down the road after a rain? >Having a pantry full of home grown food provides a marvelous >feeling of accomplishment, is very healthy, and low cost, but >how often do you hear this idea promoted? Sigh... Because there is little chance of money transfer and control. How much time is spent working just to afford a new car every couple of years? Working while under control of an employer. The home grown potatoes mean less time spaced in front of the TV being fed images of pure consumption. The less you do for yourself, the more external forces can control you. The more you do for yourself, the less you can be controlled. The more you are self sufficent, the less willing you are to parrot the latest political garbage. >Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 14:53:53 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA06561; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:53:53 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA26889; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:54:31 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08352; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:54:30 -0500 Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08300; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:54:27 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA20843 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:54:19 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA03082; Tue Mar 7 14:52:40 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503071952.AA03082@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 14:52:40 EST In-Reply-To: <199503071800.KAA10243@qualcomm.com>; from "Don Bowen" at Mar 07, 95 10:00 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1064 Status: RO X-Status: Ahhhh yes shades of Thoreau, simplicity is beauty. Even down to bread. water and milled wheat or rye or whatever your favorite organic grain is. And in additon i would just offer my favorite tool, when I aquire it will be my mill. A truly whole bread is one of the most nutritious and simple sources of food. I don't have a favorite tool currently. I wonder what it will be when I have to dig a new septic field? Anyone out there run into this fun little project before? Also, I have always thought if i had chosen to have a kid, I would get them into making soaps, jams, candles, toothpaste from herbs, probably even paper ( i will for sure). These things i imagine must have really helped to keep the family solid. Everyone benifiting from clanship. Now what holds the modern family together? homesteaders with kids, what say you to this? How do kids react to no TV? (curious). How did you get off the addiction? Isn't it a funny feeling at first, it really is like getting off a powerful habbit, smoking or alcohol. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 15:29:51 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA26297; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:29:51 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA02274; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:29:27 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13956; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:29:27 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13901; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:29:22 -0500 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA015288157; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:29:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:29:17 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950307152909_42167389@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gard... Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 718 Status: RO X-Status: It has long been noted that the most lucrative branch of the food chain. And since most of the big seed companies (here in the USA anyway) are owned by multinational corporations, our investment types would much rather see us buy our seed than raise it, organically or otherwise. As I recall, the average American family can save something like $400 on food bills with a garden. When you introduce a program including fruit trees and especially small fruits (i.e. branbles and grapes) the savings of course jump. An acre of land can feed a family of four, including grain products. My whole point here is that a garden makes terrific sense, economically and otherwise. It's the first step towards self-reliance. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 16:16:00 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA20659; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:16:00 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA09613; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:15:39 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00158; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:15:37 -0500 Received: from teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00115; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:15:35 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQygbr05295; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:55:56 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (kowens@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA22874 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 12:54:41 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 13:12:37 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9503071952.AA03082@pms923.pms.ford.com> Lines: 28 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1418 Status: O X-Status: > Ahhhh yes shades of Thoreau, simplicity is beauty. Even down to bread. > water and milled wheat or rye or whatever your favorite organic grain is. > And in additon i would just offer my favorite tool, when I aquire it will > be my mill. A truly whole bread is one of the most nutritious and simple > sources of food. Yes, grain is one of the joys of life. We grind whole grains, pop the result into a bread machine and for a few pennies have wonderful bread. This is another activity that few people take advantage of due to lack of promotion. The wheat can be bought in 50 pound bags and a years supply cost less than one meal out. It is more nutritious than any bread you can buy and tastes out of this world. If one gets tired of standard wheat, then kamut and some of the other grains add variety. The whole process only takes a few minutes and the tools last a long time. Our wheat grinder is over 30 years old and going strong, the bread machine is over a year old and has been averaging 3 loaves a week. Sounds like a pretty good return on the dollars invested to me. Oh yes, our wheat grinder is a stone mill which grinds a loafs worth of flour in about 20 seconds. It is called Mill & Mix. We wrote to them in 1987 and they were still in business then. If anyone finds one of these mills used it is a real bargain. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 16:44:37 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05357; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:44:37 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA14339; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:42:53 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00758; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:42:53 -0500 Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00682; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:42:47 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA15708 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:42:40 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA03642; Tue Mar 7 16:41:02 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503072141.AA03642@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 16:41:02 EST In-Reply-To: ; from "Jeff Owens" at Mar 07, 95 1:12 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1759 Status: RO X-Status: > > > Ahhhh yes shades of Thoreau, simplicity is beauty. Even down to bread. > > water and milled wheat or rye or whatever your favorite organic grain is. > > And in additon i would just offer my favorite tool, when I aquire it will > > be my mill. A truly whole bread is one of the most nutritious and simple > > sources of food. > > Yes, grain is one of the joys of life. We grind whole > grains, pop the result into a bread machine and for a few > pennies have wonderful bread. This is another activity > that few people take advantage of due to lack of promotion. > The wheat can be bought in 50 pound bags and a years supply > cost less than one meal out. It is more nutritious than > any bread you can buy and tastes out of this world. If one > gets tired of standard wheat, then kamut and some of the > other grains add variety. The whole process only takes a > few minutes and the tools last a long time. Our wheat > grinder is over 30 years old and going strong, the bread > machine is over a year old and has been averaging 3 loaves > a week. Sounds like a pretty good return on the dollars > invested to me. > > Oh yes, our wheat grinder is a stone mill which grinds a > loafs worth of flour in about 20 seconds. It is called > Mill & Mix. We wrote to them in 1987 and they were still > in business then. If anyone finds one of these mills used > it is a real bargain. > > Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) > Jeff, Can you pleas pass on a address or number to Mill&Mix. this sounds like what I need. Also what of organic sources of grains ? Have you ever grown your own grains? I heard it was not a problem that these grains can grow in even not so rich earth as well. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 17:11:05 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA19445; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:11:05 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA18548; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:04:37 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25480; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:04:52 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25429; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:04:47 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id OAA21019 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:04:38 -0800 Message-Id: <199503072204.OAA21019@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 14:04:13 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1368 Status: RO X-Status: >> Oh yes, our wheat grinder is a stone mill which grinds a >> loafs worth of flour in about 20 seconds. It is called >> Mill & Mix. We wrote to them in 1987 and they were still >> in business then. If anyone finds one of these mills used >> it is a real bargain. >> >> Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) >> > Jeff, Can you pleas pass on a address or number to Mill&Mix. this sounds like > what I need. Also what of organic sources of grains ? Have you ever grown > your own grains? I heard it was not a problem that these grains can grow > in even not so rich earth as well. Yes, please post the address. As for growing your own grain, an important component of improving soil is cover crops. Grain is an excelent cover crop as it provides a lot of organic material while providing a food crop. Jeavons suggests that you should have 2/3 of your garden space in grain. When my early crop bed is harvested I hope to try some grain growing though harvesting will be a problem. For a first attempt I may just do it for the cover crop. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 17:26:56 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA27398; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:26:56 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA22504; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:27:02 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19474; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:27:13 -0500 Received: from proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19404; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:27:08 -0500 Received: from [128.183.28.116] by proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Tue, 7 Mar 1995 18:25:11 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:27:12 -0500 To: homestead@world.std.com From: DOSGOOD@PROXIMA.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Dean Osgood) Subject: RE: Favorite homestead tool Message-Id: <1417521785-25823369@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov> Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 684 Status: RO X-Status: One of my favorites is a "True-Temper" brand 48" ditch-bank tool. This is a 16" doublesided axe like blade (about 1/8" thick) that curves to a hook, mounted with three bolts to a long (48" +/-) hickory handle. Looks like a medievel weapon, but is wonderful for brush, saplings and other stuff along fence lines. And when compared to a "weed-wacker" it uses a lot less fuel, etc, so when I have to go way up along the ridge line every few years, its a lot easyer to use muscle power than to lug gas/oil/spare blades up the mountain. Also usefull for a lot of other stuff. WARNING, THIS TOOL IS DANGEROUS AS HELL, but you can take down a 3" pine/poplar with one whack when its sharp. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 17:35:15 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA01422; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:35:15 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA23145; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:30:06 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23140; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:30:32 -0500 Received: from wvnvm.wvnet.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23114; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:30:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199503072230.AA23114@world.std.com> Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0245; Tue, 07 Mar 95 17:29:23 EST Received: from WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (NJE origin U6ED4@WVNVM) by WVNVM.WVNET.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9322; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:29:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:29:22 EST From: "bonni brooks" To: Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening In-Reply-To: Message of 03/07/95 at 13:12:37 from kowens@teleport.com Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1236 Status: RO X-Status: On 03/07/95 at 13:12:37 kowens@teleport.com said: > Yes, grain is one of the joys of life. We grind whole > grains, pop the result into a bread machine and for a few > pennies have wonderful bread. This is another activity I can't believe you let a machine make your bread. What about the therapeutic value of pounding the daylights out of a hunk of dough? I have a KitchenAid that we use to mix the dough only until it is manageable by hand, but even that's optional. Hand-kneaded bread tastes better and has better texture. You have much more control over the entire process: if it's warm and the bread is rising quickly, you can shorten the rises; if it's cold and the yeast is sluggish, you can give it more time. We also buy our yeast in bulk at the local coop. The yeast is fresh and much better than the packaged stuff, not to mention cheaper. *MUCH* cheaper. We use 20% less yeast, and the bread rises better. Good stuff. bonni IC | XC | bonni brooks "The Lone Quilter" | "We speak ---+--- | u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu | Byzantine NI | KA | Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV USA | Catholic | http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html | here." From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 17:43:10 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05115; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:43:10 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA26303; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:45:39 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09242; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:46:08 -0500 Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09176; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:46:03 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA19770 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:45:56 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA04263; Tue Mar 7 17:44:18 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503072244.AA04263@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 17:44:18 EST In-Reply-To: <199503072230.AA23114@world.std.com>; from "bonni brooks" at Mar 7, 95 5:29 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1405 Status: RO X-Status: > > On 03/07/95 at 13:12:37 kowens@teleport.com said: > > > Yes, grain is one of the joys of life. We grind whole > > grains, pop the result into a bread machine and for a few > > pennies have wonderful bread. This is another activity > > I can't believe you let a machine make your bread. What about the > therapeutic value of pounding the daylights out of a hunk of dough? > I have a KitchenAid that we use to mix the dough only until it is > manageable by hand, but even that's optional. > > Hand-kneaded bread tastes better and has better texture. You have > much more control over the entire process: if it's warm and the bread > is rising quickly, you can shorten the rises; if it's cold and the > yeast is sluggish, you can give it more time. We also buy our yeast > in bulk at the local coop. The yeast is fresh and much better than > the packaged stuff, not to mention cheaper. *MUCH* cheaper. We use > 20% less yeast, and the bread rises better. Good stuff. hhahah, I almost said in my original post that folks often times ask me off the cuff, "so, how *do* you like your bread maker?" I guess since they know I make my own that SURELY I would use a bread maker. WEll, let me tell you ;) I roll my own, and stop calling me "shurley". Boy i'll tell ya, i'd sell that bread maker (300$ + ?) and .... that'll teach ya to say the word *bread maker* in a homestead group. |-) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 17:43:22 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05217; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:43:22 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA25943; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:43:44 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07345; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:44:11 -0500 Received: from cs.pdx.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07233; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:44:05 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.cs.pdx.edu [127.0.0.1]) by cs.pdx.edu (8.6.10/CATastrophe-12/23/94-P) with ESMTP id OAA22069; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:43:58 -0800 for Message-Id: <199503072243.OAA22069@cs.pdx.edu> To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: tellner@cs.pdx.edu Subject: Re: Favorite homestead tool In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 07 Mar 1995 08:05:51 CST." <29154.rrosati@ilstu.edu> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 14:43:47 -0800 From: "Todd D. Ellner" Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 611 Status: RO X-Status: [the hoe made out of a shovel] The eye-hoe, also known as the Grape hoe and the Dago hoe [no offense meant here; it's another common-usage name for the same thing] is a wonderful tool. My wife grew up cultivating maize fields with one in East Africa and derisively refers to what is sold in the hardware stores as 'the Honky hoe' or 'the toy hoe'. About a year ago Organic Gardening magazine reviewed a number of hoes, and the Eye-hoe was one of their favorites. If you do get one get the one with the elliptical eye and handle. When the round-eye one wears at the handle the head rotates unexpectedly. Todd From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 17:46:18 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA06463; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:46:18 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA26151; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:45:06 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08697; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:45:35 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08667; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:45:33 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.10/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id OAA28486 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:45:26 -0800 Message-Id: <199503072245.OAA28486@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 14:45:01 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 702 Status: RO X-Status: > >I can't believe you let a machine make your bread. What about the >therapeutic value of pounding the daylights out of a hunk of dough? >I have a KitchenAid that we use to mix the dough only until it is >manageable by hand, but even that's optional. My wife likes to make bread when someone or something in her life is giving her fits. She can take a lot out on that poor pile of dough. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, no TV, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 19:22:32 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18240; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:22:32 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA09057; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:22:31 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11458; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:22:30 -0500 Received: from sol.ashland.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11415; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:22:28 -0500 Received: for mhamel@ashland.edu by sol.ashland.edu (8.6.10/931002.1044) id TAA19561; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:24:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:24:16 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew W. Hamel" Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199503071800.KAA10243@qualcomm.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 734 Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Don Bowen wrote: > > Because there is little chance of money transfer and control. How > much time is spent working just to afford a new car every couple of years? > Working while under control of an employer. The home grown potatoes mean > less time spaced in front of the TV being fed images of pure consumption. > The less you do for yourself, the more external forces can control you. The > more you do for yourself, the less you can be controlled. The more you are > self sufficent, the less willing you are to parrot the latest political > garbage. Wait a minute....I thought that's what you were doing ;) Matt Hamel mhamel@ashland.edu In the Chevy Chevette of the Information Superhighway From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 00:08:54 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA11822; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 00:08:54 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA12148; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 00:03:31 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07007; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 00:03:30 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06993; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 00:03:29 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA278229003; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 00:03:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 00:03:23 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950308000317_42752794@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Favorite homestead tool Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 214 Status: RO X-Status: I find a good machete invaluable around here. Use it as weed whacker, pruning tool, brush cutter, and light digging tool. Use one of those pick/shovels the military call an entrenching tool. Both go camping, too. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 04:02:42 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA07548; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 04:02:42 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id EAA05978; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 04:02:06 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23716; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 04:02:07 -0500 Received: from prime.eepo.com.au ([203.5.184.1]) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23603; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 04:01:27 -0500 Received: from cessysv.eepo.com.au (cessysv.eepo.com.au [203.5.184.4]) by prime.eepo.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA01481 for <@mailhost.eepo.com.au:homestead@world.std.com>; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 16:59:41 +0800 Received: from bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au by cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au id aa18732; 8 Mar 95 17:00 WST Received: by bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (UUPC/extended 1.11n); Wed, 08 Mar 1995 10:23:34 WST X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 10:23:33 WST From: Warwick Rowell Message-Id: <2f5d1527.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 686 Status: RO X-Status: Hi Don. I have enjoyed your stuff. I agree on the bulk purchase stuff, for example, for the bulk grains that it is not sensible to grow yourself. We have just purchased a 25Kg bag of oganic wholemeal stone ground flour, direct from the miller/grower. We can direct all of our purchases to support the people who are doing the right thing by the environment, as well. Wx -- __________________________________________________________ | warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au | | | | Management Consultant Permaculture Designer | |_"Helping Managers Learn"___"Helping Land Managers Learn"_| From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 11:45:44 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA24833; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 11:45:44 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA02541; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 11:45:13 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07873; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 11:45:14 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07841; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 11:45:12 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA18728 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 08:45:04 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 18:55:36 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9503072141.AA03642@pms923.pms.ford.com> Lines: 57 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2330 Status: RO X-Status: >Jeff, Can you pleas pass on a address or number to Mill&Mix. this sounds like >what I need. Also what of organic sources of grains ? Have you ever grown >your own grains? I heard it was not a problem that these grains can grow >in even not so rich earth as well. Sure, but first the wife said we have had our mill for 20 years and not thirty (can't get away with anything around here). Also, she said they are now out of business. Let me know if they are actually in business. I get points whenever she is wrong. Mill & Mix PO box 697 Brigham City, Utah 84302 (801) 723 6250 Oh yes, this mill is a serious grain grinder, it has a motor the size of a starter motor on a car and is heavy. Sources of organic grains? Gosh, on the West coast their are two large distributors. Mountain Peoples in California (800-679-8735) and Nutrasource in Seattle. Both are wholesale grocery outlets who work with both stores and buying clubs. They usually have a list of buying clubs in the area they serve. Lots of mail order places have organic wheat, but I have not saved the addresses. There was a place in Idaho called Walton Feed that was outstanding for large purchases. Walton Feed PO Box 307 Montpelier, Idaho 83254 (208) 847-0465 We currently work with a buying club and order in large quantity a few times a year. This is the way to go if there is a good club in the area. We have tried growing grain a few times, but it is so inexpensive that we quit. Someday the price of grain is sure to increase and then we might try it again. But, right now you can buy a ton of grain for animal feed for next to nothing. That might be another source of wheat, a local farmer. We use to buy it for the sheep but did not grind it because of fear of stones. It must be hard for a farmers to clean the wheat if they have a dusty rocky field. Arrowhead mills in Texas also sells in bulk but not sure if they have organic stuff. If you can put together a big order they might be a good deal. We stopped using mail order because it was difficult for the trucks to find us, the gates drove them nuts, and we had to wait around for them to show up. But this is probably a good option for most people. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 12:29:09 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15561; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:29:09 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA11036; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:31:09 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04578; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:31:08 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04554; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:31:06 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA27251 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 09:30:59 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 09:43:10 -0500 Message-Id: <-9SNlS9cp2zQ069yn@teleport.com> In-Reply-To: <199503072230.AA23114@world.std.com> Lines: 42 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1992 Status: RO X-Status: Well since I mentioned bread machines, guess I should try and defend them. So far Bonni says: > I can't believe you let a machine make your bread. What about the > therapeutic value of pounding the daylights out of a hunk of dough? > I have a KitchenAid that we use to mix the dough only until it is > manageable by hand, but even that's optional. > Hand-kneaded bread tastes better and has better texture. You have > much more control over the entire process: if it's warm and the bread > is rising quickly, you can shorten the rises; if it's cold and the > yeast is sluggish, you can give it more time. And Karl Henning says bread machines are $300+. OK, as far as the therapeutic value of pounding on dough. Well there are lots of things to pound on around here, not sure adding one more would be an advantage. Is hand-kneaded bread better? What we need is a test. Bonni if you will come over and make a few loaves (about 100 sounds good). We can run a test. If there is still any question we can keep making loaves. If hand-kneaded is better I'll gladly admit it (just before my funeral). Now about that $300 price tag. Our machine cost us around $130 and includes a rice cooker. We use it constantly and it will soon be two years old. Maybe, still a little expensive, but we do not have another good option. All our cooking is done on a solar electric system, and running an oven is out of the question. Using the bread machine with solar is great combination. Also, they are very efficient in their power usage when compared to a large oven. Plus, that rice cooker makes outstanding rice. There are a few other advantages to bread machines. For the cooking impaired (me) it is a gift from heaven. It is easy, fast, and the clean up is minimal. You can use the timer to bake bread so it is ready first thing in the morning. Now waking up to the smell of baking bread should be enough to convert all you hard core hand-kneaders. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 12:52:49 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA27372; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:52:49 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA15041; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:50:31 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16243; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:50:30 -0500 Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16214; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:50:27 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA05002 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:50:19 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA05287; Wed Mar 8 12:48:38 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503081748.AA05287@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 95 12:48:38 EST In-Reply-To: <-9SNlS9cp2zQ069yn@teleport.com>; from "Jeff Owens" at Mar 08, 95 9:43 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2189 Status: RO X-Status: > > Well since I mentioned bread machines, guess I should try > and defend them. > > So far Bonni says: > > I can't believe you let a machine make your bread. What about the > > therapeutic value of pounding the daylights out of a hunk of dough? > > I have a KitchenAid that we use to mix the dough only until it is > > manageable by hand, but even that's optional. > > > Hand-kneaded bread tastes better and has better texture. You have > > much more control over the entire process: if it's warm and the bread > > is rising quickly, you can shorten the rises; if it's cold and the > > yeast is sluggish, you can give it more time. > > And Karl Henning says bread machines are $300+. > > OK, as far as the therapeutic value of pounding on dough. Well there > are lots of things to pound on around here, not sure adding one more > would be an advantage. > > Is hand-kneaded bread better? What we need is a test. Bonni if you > will come over and make a few loaves (about 100 sounds good). We > can run a test. If there is still any question we can keep making > loaves. If hand-kneaded is better I'll gladly admit it (just before > my funeral). > Now now, we are arguing quality here not quantity. All our cooking is done on a solar electric > system, and running an oven is out of the question. why is this? > Also, they are > very efficient in their power usage when compared to a large oven. True. > Plus, that rice cooker makes outstanding rice. > > There are a few other advantages to bread machines. For the cooking > impaired (me) it is a gift from heaven. It is easy, fast, and the > clean up is minimal. Hmmmmm. You can use the timer to bake bread so it is > ready first thing in the morning. Can't argue that. > Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) cool! > Now what about Bonnies claims to be able to control the process more by the manual method? I have to agree with her on that. I guess the prices have gone down, still the tech. goes against my own personel homestead manifesto. How much for the solar electric system. Also, do you know about selling power back to utilities? or did the raygun-ites disolve that? From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 12:56:46 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA29339; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:56:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA16039; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:56:05 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19030; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:55:57 -0500 Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18981; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:55:52 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA05203 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:55:45 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA05381; Wed Mar 8 12:54:04 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503081754.AA05381@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 95 12:54:03 EST In-Reply-To: <9503081748.AA05287@pms923.pms.ford.com>; from "Karl Henning" at Mar 8, 95 12:48 (noon) Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 172 Status: RO X-Status: My question about the solar electric system must have seen funny after i mentioned my manifesto. Just curious, though, how long does it take to break even on such tech.? From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 17:42:56 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA11670; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 17:42:56 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA02394; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:01:35 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28929; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:01:16 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28894; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:01:14 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA20683 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:01:08 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:01:07 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <2f5d1527.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 633 Status: RO X-Status: Hi all - There's been a fair amount of talk about bulk grain purchase - I'd love to get 25 or 50 lb. of whole grain organic wheat to grind on-demand. Anyone have a favorite source (mail order, etc.?) +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 17:56:41 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA18774; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 17:56:41 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA03776; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:13:21 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05288; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:13:03 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05274; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:13:01 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA21525 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:12:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:12:55 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <-9SNlS9cp2zQ069yn@teleport.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1167 Status: RO X-Status: On the subject of bread machines: As an owner of a bread machine and an avid hand-baker of bread, I must jump in here. Everyone is right - Bonni, there really is a difference, hand-baked is more satisfying for many reasons. But, you are no doubt aware of the time it takes to make bread. The bread machine makes decent bread, and it does it while I sleep, which, in my current hectic lifestyle (the one I'm trying ditch :) is sometimes the only time I can do it. When I have the time, I prefer to make bread by hand. I think there is a purpose for each method. I'm quite intrigued by the point that the bread maker works well with a solar electric system - I was assuming I'd have to give it up when I get the PV system. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 18:04:46 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA22522; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 18:04:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA03243; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:08:10 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02569; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:07:51 -0500 Received: from rowe.williams.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02548; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:07:48 -0500 Received: from hancock (hancock.cc.williams.edu) by rowe.williams.edu with SMTP id AA06100 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:07:41 -0500 Received: from sawyer_refdesk.williams.edu by hancock (4.1/client-1.3) id AA11639; Wed, 8 Mar 95 14:07:40 EST Date: Wed, 8 Mar 95 14:07:40 EST Message-Id: <9503081907.AA11639@hancock> X-Sender: jchamay@popserver.williams.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: Julie.Z.Chamay@williams.edu (Julie Chamay) Subject: Bread & Chickens X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1316 Status: RO X-Status: I'm with Bonni on the issue of bread machines. We received one as a gift, and used it for about a year, until the motor died. For a fraction of the cost of repairing it, we bought a bread bucket through Lehman's. It's basically a big bucket with a manually turned dough hook. The first time I used it I was blown away at the difference in the texture of the crust vs. the machined bread crust. As Bonni said, you also have a lot more control over the bread, and you can make more than one loaf at a time. We found that the machine also was not well suited to breads made with only whole-grain flours. 'Nuff said. About chickens: we recently saw a talk on "chicken tractors", in which you house chickens in portable cages which sit on the ground with an open bottom. You move them once a week or so, allowing the chickens to scratch and till the ground for you. The slides we saw were quite interesting. They showed the row that the chickens were being moved down. Has anyone tried this, or other "pastured" poultry techniques? We've just had a few chickens, who have the run of the place, but we're thinking of putting them on an upper pasture when we get new chicks. Julie Chamay Librarian/Farmer/Herbalist Julie Z. Chamay Reference Librarian Sawyer Library, Williams College jchamay@williams.edu From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 18:04:46 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA22522; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 18:04:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA03243; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:08:10 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02569; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:07:51 -0500 Received: from rowe.williams.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02548; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:07:48 -0500 Received: from hancock (hancock.cc.williams.edu) by rowe.williams.edu with SMTP id AA06100 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:07:41 -0500 Received: from sawyer_refdesk.williams.edu by hancock (4.1/client-1.3) id AA11639; Wed, 8 Mar 95 14:07:40 EST Date: Wed, 8 Mar 95 14:07:40 EST Message-Id: <9503081907.AA11639@hancock> X-Sender: jchamay@popserver.williams.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: homestead@world.std.com From: Julie.Z.Chamay@williams.edu (Julie Chamay) Subject: Bread & Chickens X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1316 Status: RO X-Status: A I'm with Bonni on the issue of bread machines. We received one as a gift, and used it for about a year, until the motor died. For a fraction of the cost of repairing it, we bought a bread bucket through Lehman's. It's basically a big bucket with a manually turned dough hook. The first time I used it I was blown away at the difference in the texture of the crust vs. the machined bread crust. As Bonni said, you also have a lot more control over the bread, and you can make more than one loaf at a time. We found that the machine also was not well suited to breads made with only whole-grain flours. 'Nuff said. About chickens: we recently saw a talk on "chicken tractors", in which you house chickens in portable cages which sit on the ground with an open bottom. You move them once a week or so, allowing the chickens to scratch and till the ground for you. The slides we saw were quite interesting. They showed the row that the chickens were being moved down. Has anyone tried this, or other "pastured" poultry techniques? We've just had a few chickens, who have the run of the place, but we're thinking of putting them on an upper pasture when we get new chicks. Julie Chamay Librarian/Farmer/Herbalist Julie Z. Chamay Reference Librarian Sawyer Library, Williams College jchamay@williams.edu From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 18:54:16 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15908; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 18:54:16 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA10859; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 15:07:26 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09557; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 15:07:07 -0500 Received: from rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (aixb.cmp.ilstu.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09473; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 15:06:59 -0500 Received: by rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13106; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:06:04 -0600 X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:05:37 -0600 (CST) From: Message-Id: <50744.rrosati@ilstu.edu> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 785 Status: RO X-Status: > There are a few other advantages to bread machines. For the cooking > impaired (me) it is a gift from heaven. It is easy, fast, and the > clean up is minimal. You can use the timer to bake bread so it is > ready first thing in the morning. Now waking up to the smell of > baking bread should be enough to convert all you hard core hand-kneaders. We have 7 acres of hard red winter wheat in the field right now. We hope to use a grain grinder attached to a Kithen Aide mixer to make our flour and then use a bread machine to make the bread. I know this involves the use of too many machines but I still rely on the income from my job in town and I don't have as much time as I need to do my homesteading. Until my work pressures decrease, I use time saving machines when I can. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 22:50:17 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23692; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 22:50:17 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA04895; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 22:54:44 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26596; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 22:54:40 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26578; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 22:54:38 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA27581 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 19:54:30 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 20:11:17 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9503081748.AA05287@pms923.pms.ford.com> Lines: 36 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1530 Status: RO X-Status: > > Is hand-kneaded bread better? What we need is a test. Bonni if you > > will come over and make a few loaves (about 100 sounds good). We > > can run a test. If there is still any question we can keep making > > loaves. If hand-kneaded is better I'll gladly admit it (just before > > my funeral). > > > Now now, we are arguing quality here not quantity. Quantity? Nope! I was just trying to con someone into making some bread. There is nothing better than fresh home made bread. > > All our cooking is done on a solar electric > > system, and running an oven is out of the question. > > why is this? Well, so far we have not found an oven which will cook bread and still not blow fuses on our solar system. Plus, it is nice to be able to run several appliances without worrying about running the batteries down. > Now what about Bonnies claims to be able to control the process more by the > manual method? I have to agree with her on that. I guess the prices have gone > down, still the tech. goes against my own personal homestead manifesto. Yes, she wins that argument. > How much for the solar electric system. Also, do you know about selling > power back to utilities? or did the raygun-ites disolve that? Oh, you can sell power back to the utility, and a few people actually do it. But, there are a few hoops to jump through, and the system costs go up to meet the utility standards. Besides, I like to tinker and that isn't compatible with rigid standards. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 8 22:50:58 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23958; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 22:50:58 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA04929; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 22:54:52 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26627; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 22:54:43 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26603; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 22:54:41 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA27586 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 19:54:34 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 20:26:54 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9503081754.AA05381@pms923.pms.ford.com> Lines: 27 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 1267 Status: RO X-Status: > My question about the solar electric system must have seen funny > after i mentioned my manifesto. Just curious, though, how long does it take to > break even on such tech.? That is a tough one. If your site is miles from a power line then you can break even instantly. Otherwise from 20 years to never. I suspect that most people go solar for reasons other than the break even analysis. For us it is a combination insurance, investment, and seems like the right thing to do. The insurance part is easy to explain. Around here the grid goes down a few times each year and now we just laugh at the power outages. Also there is a good case for future energy problems and rate increases. Since a solar system can last 20+ years this provides some protection. The investment part is also easy. Where else can you put your money and have a guaranteed return (electricity). Also, the resale value is pretty good. But the real reason is that solar electricity is not a heavy polluter, and we need to fund development of power systems which are not dependent on oil. Solar has the potential of being a cost effective energy source which everyone can own. This would eliminate utilities, wires all over, meter readers, etc. Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 9 08:26:44 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA26523; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:26:44 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA19308; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:28:37 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27331; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:28:35 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27316; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:28:34 -0500 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA294415707; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:28:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:28:28 -0500 From: Sandpeep@aol.com Message-Id: <950309082826_44094194@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Bread & Chickens Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 826 Status: RO X-Status: Don't know about the chicken tractors, but if you dust off you old copies of Mother Earth News, they had something identical using pigs (one per tractor), seems that even though a lot smaller than cows, pigs really tear up the ground due to the "loading" on their little feet -PSI (Pigs/Square Inch?) They also did a number rooting up the soil looking for? If I remember rightly, the big advantage was not only "no till", but automatic deposit of organic fertilizer. One problem that I saw that wasn't addressed was how to keep a supply of water out on a movable cage that the pig wouldn't tip over. (Pictures showed them "plowing" to keep weeds down between rows in an orchard. - didn't pay it much mind, as Masanobu Fukoka in ONE STRAW REVOLUTION proposed the pigs just run free (after the orchard is well established) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 9 16:23:40 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA12892; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:23:40 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA14124; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:25:44 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07763; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:25:35 -0500 Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07733; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:25:31 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA14558 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:25:22 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA08423; Thu Mar 9 16:23:37 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503092123.AA08423@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 9 Mar 95 16:23:37 EST In-Reply-To: ; from "Jeff Owens" at Mar 08, 95 8:11 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 842 Status: RO X-Status: Jeff you sound like a good case for solar. How much do you think I would need to invest to heat a 1200 ft2. house to say 68 deg. for 3.5 months, couple people taking shower each day, I agree we need a better cooking device other then an oven, it's old and really wastes electricity. I do plan on going full lp gas this spring. But Solar is a long term consideration. I guess I also want to get a feel for how many sunny days versus cloudy days. Oregon is not the most sunny place, depends though. I mean did you look at wind or other systems? Are Photo-voltaic cells the best? Whats all this gonna cost? I'm thinking around 5-10K. So really we need it for; water heating, small electric utilities, washing machine, and *maybe* some kind of eco-clothes drying device other then the outside for when it's wet, thats about it. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Mon Mar 6 10:17:53 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA05595; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 10:17:53 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA06224; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 10:20:27 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05757; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 15:08:27 GMT Received: from tntech.edu (gemini.tntech.edu) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05729; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 10:08:24 -0500 Received: from tntech.edu by tntech.edu (PMDF V4.3-10 #7186) id <01HNT6DJOSMODLJ1NG@tntech.edu>; Mon, 06 Mar 1995 09:10:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 1995 09:10:39 -0600 (CST) From: PAT LENZO Subject: Re: Organization, lack of To: homestead@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HNT6DJQO5EDLJ1NG@tntech.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"homestead@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1066 Status: RO X-Status: > > You're not alone, Pat. We're always behind on household chores. All those > labor saving devices sure take up the time. So what are your favorite > catalogs? BTW, Southern States has some of the same stuff as Cumberland Genera > l, but at lower prices. I live about 35 miles from Cumberland General and stop in there fairly often. But I agree it's pricy. Will be looking forward to getting the Southern States catalogue. I've had pretty good luck over the years at getting my favorite farm supply store to order special stuff for me. Course, I'm not buying things like solar panels, either. My problelm is finding "hired help" who know the stuff I don't..Two things I'd love to have are solar hot water and high tensile fencing. I could find the material, but haven't because I can't find anyone who kows how they work and could install either of them for me. And girls weren't taught these sorts of things in the 50's. BTW, I wrote that post looking at a 2 day old lamb running (and pooping) on floors with muddy dog paw prints. It's a lost cause..... From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Mar 7 07:49:11 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA26640; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:49:11 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA29048; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:48:46 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12533; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:48:42 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12342; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:48:25 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA099640494; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:48:14 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:48:14 -0500 From: LCSkinner@aol.com Message-Id: <950307074813_41738026@aol.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: catalogs Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 281 Status: RO X-Status: FYI, Cumberland General Store catalogs can be found on some magazine racks (Barnes & Noble, for example). Lehman's is often part of theose multiple catalog order cards found TMEN and other magazines. I've even seen in some outdoors magazines. It's obscure ones I'm interested in. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 9 21:38:29 1995 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA27364; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 21:38:29 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQygjy04928; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 21:41:29 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08470; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 21:40:05 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08448; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 21:40:02 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (kowens@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA29508 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 18:39:54 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) Subject: Re: Economics of Organic Gardening Date: Thu, 09 Mar 1995 18:44:57 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9503092123.AA08423@pms923.pms.ford.com> Lines: 60 Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com content-length: 2976 Status: RO X-Status: > Jeff you sound like a good case for solar. How much do you think I would > need to invest to heat a 1200 ft2. house to say 68 deg. for 3.5 months, > couple people taking shower each day, I agree we need a better cooking > device other then an oven, it's old and really wastes electricity. I do > plan on going full lp gas this spring. > But Solar is a long term consideration. I guess I also > want to get a feel for how many sunny days versus cloudy days. > Oregon is not the most sunny place, depends though. I mean did you look at > wind or other systems? Are Photo-voltaic cells the best? Whats all this gonna > cost? I'm thinking around 5-10K. > > So really we need it for; water heating, small electric utilities, washing > machine, and *maybe* some kind of eco-clothes drying device other then the > outside for when it's wet, thats about it. Wow! Thats more questions than this dim witted old radical can answer. I'll try, but maybe some one else can add corrections. We built a small house specifically to save energy and it is 1000 sq ft. The heat comes from the windows, sun room, occupants, hot water heater, and if needed a wood stove. Since we are mostly underground, heat is needed year round. Basically, the heating is designed into the house, and the cost is in the building. The hot water comes for a solar heater, and a electric element. The cost here is around a thousand dollars. It depends upon where you live, if freezing is a problem, etc. Our system is probably on the high end of costs. If two people took showers each day, I would want to go first in the winter time, or move to Arizona. We use electricity for everything and don't use any oil products except for the car and some outside power tools. So, cooking is mainly small appliances. No problem, unless you want a Turkey at Thanksgiving. Using LP gas would save a lot of electricity and reduce the size of the solar electric system. The exact size and cost of the system would depend upon what area of the country and what appliances were used. Your figure of 5-10k is possible, but not without a lot of efficient appliances and dedicated conservation. Don't know about the southern states, things would be much easier there. We have not taken advantage of all our solar opportunities yet, so other power sources do not get much attention. And yes, those clouds are a big problem. Our lifestyle has been slowly altering to match the weather and seasons. This seems to work fairly well. For most folks this would not be a comfortable option, but I find it educational and challenging. Hope you can get something out of all these disjointed sentences. Ah... one other thing. We are having high winds and the grid is down today locally. The neighbors tree fell on the lines. Time go pop some pop corn and invite the neighbors over . Jeff (vote with your lifestyle) From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 3 09:01:26 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA11000; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:01:26 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA21353; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:05:22 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16878; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 14:02:55 GMT Received: from proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16869; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:02:53 -0500 Received: from [128.183.28.116] by proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b10); Fri, 3 Mar 1995 10:01:06 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:03:00 -0500 To: homestead@world.std.com From: DOSGOOD@PROXIMA.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Dean Osgood) Subject: Re: Wild Cats Message-Id: <1417897630-3217610@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov> Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1118 Status: RO X-Status: Feral Cats are a problem when you have Too many of the darn things. In '82 some "#%&** idijut" must have let out 25 or more , I, and both of my neibors lost all of our hens, half our roosters, and the local wild turkey and grouse populations took big hits. We wound up , in the words of one of my neibors, "recycleing the feral cats into tomato bush's". Feral cats in a natural balance are OK, but when you have some "idijut" artificialy adjust the population, consider being a preditor for a while. When we eliminated the wolves from the wild, we assumed their responsabilitys As to "groundhog" control, the most effective/most humane method I know of is to dump the contents of an outhouse bucket down the hole. This does two things, burys the outhouse waste deep into rocky soil, and tells "mr. groundhog" that its time to move. I know a hog farmer who runs a liquid manure set up, and who hates groundhogs, and he will pump 50 to 200 gallons into every hole he sees, and after a few years of that his crops are doing better, as he is getting nutrents deeper into the soil than by surface spreading. Dean Osgood From homestead-approval@world.std.com Fri Mar 3 09:31:41 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA23359; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:31:41 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA25192; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:36:12 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01406; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 14:23:19 GMT Received: from milkman.cac.psu.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01344; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:23:15 -0500 Received: from curtiss.cac.psu.edu by milkman.cac.psu.edu with SMTP id AA15697 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:23:09 -0500 From: MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI Received: by curtiss.cac.psu.edu id ; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:23:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199503031423.AA16335@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> Subject: Re: Wild Cats To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:23:07 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <1417897630-3217610@proxima.gsfc.nasa.gov> from "Dean Osgood" at Mar 3, 95 09:03:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 458 Status: RO X-Status: > When we eliminated the wolves from the wild, we assumed their responsabilitys > Yes, we wiped out an animal that was in balance with the local system, then we complain about deer, etc that are overpopulating the land. This is an example of the lack or respect for nature that the majority of Western-Thought people have.....That is why it is time to go back to the land before I end up loosing my sensitivity. * Mike From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 22:45:55 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03929; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 22:45:55 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA04898; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 22:51:32 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08179; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 03:45:53 GMT Received: from milkman.cac.psu.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08136; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 22:45:50 -0500 Received: from curtiss.cac.psu.edu by milkman.cac.psu.edu with SMTP id AA05580 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 2 Mar 1995 22:45:45 -0500 From: MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI Received: by curtiss.cac.psu.edu id ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 22:45:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199503030345.AA14236@curtiss.cac.psu.edu> Subject: Re: Wild Cats To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 22:45:44 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Sal Schettino" at Mar 2, 95 09:35:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 83 Status: O X-Status: ** I abstain from this argument due to the grounds of emotions ** - Mike B From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 14:31:15 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16134; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:31:15 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA04644; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:37:09 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22294; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 19:25:00 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22276; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:24:58 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQyfiz12949; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:22:52 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id LAA12951 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:21:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199503021921.LAA12951@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 11:21:06 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: community gardens (was: Getting Together) X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1266 Status: RO X-Status: >True, but some survive. The city of Cincinnati has at least a dozen of >these gardens, designed, planted, and maintained by one paid coordinator, >a bunch of volunteers, and the residents of the neighborhoods they are >in. It's a well-run organization (Civic Garden Center). They do good >things, put on gardening seminars, garden shows, hold plant & bulb >sales to help fund themselves. I think the greatest funding comes from >the city, though. > >Barb Some do survive but some don't and pass on to other things. One of my favorite garden catalogs started as a community garden in San Jose CA. The garden was taken away and converted into a parking lot. The founders bought land in Willits and started some research gardens and a mail order catalog. They are know as Bountiful Gardens. There is also a garden shop in Palo Alto that I have not seen. They are located about a half mile from my mother place and I hope to make a trip there this summer. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 14:31:05 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16013; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:31:05 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA04614; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:37:01 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22609; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 19:25:22 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22586; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:25:21 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id LAA13527 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:25:16 -0800 Message-Id: <199503021925.LAA13527@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 11:24:52 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Favorite Catalogs X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 458 Status: RO X-Status: What are your favorite gardening and living catalogs? I have the Lehmans and Cumberland catalogs along with several gardening sources. Any recomendations? Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 15:31:36 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA25272; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:31:36 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA12954; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:37:03 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18407; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 20:28:22 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18369; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:28:20 -0500 Received: from internet-mail.ford.com ([198.111.80.23]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA28474 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:28:12 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA04337 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:28:11 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA26924; Thu Mar 2 15:26:50 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503022026.AA26924@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Favorite Catalogs To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 15:26:50 EST In-Reply-To: <199503021925.LAA13527@qualcomm.com>; from "Don Bowen" at Mar 02, 95 11:24 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 886 Status: RO X-Status: > > What are your favorite gardening and living catalogs? I have the > along with several gardening sources. Any > recomendations? > > Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com > Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com > > Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy > model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible > 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours > > Hey Don, are the Lehmans and Cumberland catalogs for living type stuff like pot belly stoves, stone mills etc.? Which of the 2 would I want for such stuff? Or anyothers? I'll get my info on mail order hierloom seeds from an organic business we deal with here in Michigan. Renaissance Acres has all kinds of organic herbs/seeds etc. there number is 313-449-8336, I'm trying to find out if they have a catalog to mail out. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 15:45:05 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA04285; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:45:05 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA14713; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:50:53 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24273; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 20:36:08 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24223; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:36:00 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA26879 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:35:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:35:52 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <9503021431.AA26017@pms923.pms.ford.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1517 Status: RO X-Status: I'm sorry if I left this impression, because for the most part that's not true - one house was owner-built from logs and cost mostly sweat to build. The other house, including land, energy systems, architect, etc. cost about $180,000 - certainly more than an inner-city resident can afford, but not out of the reach of the typical middle-class family. Only one of the houses I visited was prohibitively expensive, but by the owner's choice rather than by virtue of the technology. Used PV panels cna be had for $150 a piece for 48 or 53 watt units. One house I saw had started with four panels and added two more when they had the cash. If you consider your electric bills, this is a reasonable amount of money. Remember that the up-front cost is mitigated by the long-term savings on utility bills. On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, Karl Henning wrote: [snip] > We working people can afford the co-ops and the expensive solar homes > though the homes Andy Evans described sounded awfully expensive. I do not > have anywhere near the capital to get those kinds of energy systems. > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 16:01:56 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15239; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:01:56 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA16514; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:07:39 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08011; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 20:55:25 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07992; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:55:23 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id MAA27312 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:55:19 -0800 Message-Id: <199503022055.MAA27312@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 12:54:55 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Favorite Catalogs X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1282 Status: RO X-Status: >Hey Don, are the Lehmans and Cumberland catalogs for living type >stuff like pot belly stoves, stone mills etc.? Which of the 2 would I >want for such stuff? Or anyothers? I'll get my info on mail order >hierloom seeds from an organic business we deal with here in Michigan. >Renaissance Acres has all kinds of organic herbs/seeds etc. >there number is 313-449-8336, I'm trying to find out if they have a >catalog to mail out. Both are full of things used in a less energy intensive time. Lehamns is for the Amish community. Both seem a bit pricy to me but maybe they are the only place to get some of the things. I do not know which is best, both are worth the money just for the entertainment value if nothing else. Neither have a mill I want. I am looking for a mill that can use either burrs or stones, can be motor or hand powered. I saw one like that in a health food store in Spokane several years ago but did not buy it and have not seen another. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 16:19:48 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA27162; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:19:48 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA18794; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:24:22 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28515; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:18:12 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28437; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:18:09 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA10529 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:18:05 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA27061; Thu Mar 2 16:16:44 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503022116.AA27061@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Favorite Catalogs To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 16:16:44 EST In-Reply-To: <199503022055.MAA27312@qualcomm.com>; from "Don Bowen" at Mar 02, 95 12:54 (noon) Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 785 Status: RO X-Status: > I am looking for a mill that can use either burrs or stones, can be > motor or hand powered. I saw one like that in a health food store in > Spokane several years ago but did not buy it and have not seen another. > > > Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com > Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com > > Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy > model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible > 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours > > yeah me to, I have been looking for a mill, imagine grinding your own, using the whole grain when baking. You'd be eating some serious whole food! I'll keep my eyes open. what do burrs look like and why would you use them verses stone? From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 16:45:00 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA13474; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:45:00 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA22345; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:50:44 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14550; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:43:12 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14513; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:43:11 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id NAA06233 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:43:00 -0800 Message-Id: <199503022143.NAA06233@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 13:42:36 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Favorite Catalogs X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 773 Status: RO X-Status: >yeah me to, I have been looking for a mill, imagine grinding your own, >using the whole grain when baking. You'd be eating some serious whole food! >I'll keep my eyes open. what do burrs look like and why would you use them >verses stone? Burrs are metal disks with small teeth, much like a rasp. Burrs are used for oily seeds like soybean. Stones are used in dry seeds such as wheat. Burrs can be cleaned where stones will fill with oil and can become rancid. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 16:45:20 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA13536; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:45:20 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA22311; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:50:38 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17726; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:47:48 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17689; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:47:45 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA17372 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:47:41 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA27178; Thu Mar 2 16:46:20 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503022146.AA27178@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Favorite Catalogs To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 16:46:20 EST In-Reply-To: <199503022055.MAA27312@qualcomm.com>; from "Don Bowen" at Mar 02, 95 12:54 (noon) Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 360 Status: RO X-Status: If anyone is intereste here in SW MICHIGAN, the place for organic herbs and trees and anything else the good mother grows for us. the catalog is 2.50 and with SAE you'll also get a brochure on growing tips. Write to: Renaissance Acres Organic Herb Farm 4450 Valantine Rd. Whitmore Lake, MI 48189 From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 12:31:30 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA04306; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:31:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA05766; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:20:49 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16255; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:11:58 GMT Received: from sol.ashland.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16220; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:11:55 -0500 Received: for mhamel@ashland.edu by sol.ashland.edu (8.6.10/931002.1044) id LAA07010; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:13:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:13:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew W. Hamel" Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <33305.rrosati@ilstu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1493 Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 2 Mar 1995 rrosati@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu wrote: > > Placating "the masses" is not a bad idea. Would we recommend alienating > most people? If people want to move to the city and they have the means to > do so, let them go. I think that most homesteading types don't really mind being viewed as socially-challenged rural bumpkins. If they scare a few ex-urbanites away, well that's more privacy (and cheaper land) for them. They also turn the tables and sneer at those not willing to sacrifice their appliances (or electricity, or city sewage, or car, or... you get the idea) and really "rough it." Most of the original motivation for choices homesteaders make is financial (capital). Somewhere down the line these choices become "values" and allofasudden they become entrenched dogma. Case-in-point: For housing I aim to remodel/restore an older farmhouse, possibly retrofitting some sort of superinsullation and adding a masonry heater. Out-of-pocket cost would be for the home and the weatherizing, with the other improvements coming later. Yep, I am making a conscious decision to recycle an older home. I prefer the sense of history vernacular architecture provides. No, I am not a disciple of the yurt, earth-berm, straw bale, rammed earth dwelling. I happen not to like those options for reasons I've just explained. But let's remember the bottom line: $$$$$$! Matt Hamel mhamel@ashland.edu In the Chevy Chevette of the Information Superhighway From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 12:46:56 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA12892; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:46:56 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA20389; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:51:19 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27045; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 17:40:03 GMT Received: from coyote.rain.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26979; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:40:01 -0500 Received: by coyote.rain.org(8.6.10/RAIN-1.0) with id JAA24968 for on Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:35:43 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:35:42 -0800 (PST) From: Sal Schettino To: homestead@world.std.com Cc: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Wild Cats In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 3438 Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, Mike Mayer wrote: > On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI wrote: > [snip] > > Kill.....still goes against my nature. I do not kill anything unless > > it is in a direct conflict with me (a "my life or his" confrontation). > > I do completely agree with you about spaying and nuetering. I have > > been waiting to respond to the note about how someone had wild cats > > and wanted them to breed other wild cats. I think that is lidicrous. > > Feral animals are a major problem everywhere in the world. > [snip] > > I agree. Too many feral cats are sick and half blind from eye infections. > I have no intention of adding to the number of such cats. The two spayed > cats we have do a great job of keeping the mice down. The first was > rescued from our junk pile at about 5 weeks of age, fed, eyes cleaned up, > and ear mites eliminated. The second was found in front of the local school > in a box. mine are not sick or blind in fact that are healthy feral cats that love to hunt to eat. they pounce on ball of twine because mom bring them mice when they are young and teaches them how to kill. you can call it instinct i call it training from mom. Moms are the best hunters because they have to feed the babys. I can no way catch them and spade them they will not let you come close enough and if I could i don't think i will because I think if you spade them they losses some of that hunting instinct. Mom hunts for the babys and teaches them to be good hunters . everyone has their own ideas of how to treat cats. Some folks keep them in the house some even dress them in little clothes. Some treat them like their babys but around here they are just natural cats. Untill i see a reason to cut off there nuts or cut out their insides i will pass. the question was what do I do about mice. I say cats. they work for me. They showed up here and are doing a good job so every once in a while I feed them . Later if they get to be a bother I will call and have them taken away but for now they do a great job. I don't need a pet I need a mouser and a rat eater. They seem very happy to me.they were raised around the chickens and because of that don't eat chickens. they eat what mom taught them to eat. If you raise them with a baby rat they will not eat rats. I raise mine around baby chicks and have not see them bother the chickens. Mom cat taught them to eat rats and mice. I would throw them trapped gophers when they were babys and have found half gophers around in the fild so it must have worked. They came here complete cats and so far I like the way God made them. Pesticides and rat poison kills more birds that cats. I know I'm going to get flamed for this but one reason I like having my own place away from the city is because I can build it the way i like. And I like whole cats a little on the hungry side. > > They hunt from instinct, not from hunger alone. I could take a piece of > baling twine, tie a little knot in the end and shake in front of the > kitten and it would pounce on it. That's instinct, not hunger. > > ============================================================================== > Mike Mayer (414) 751-3557 Mike.Mayer@plexus.com > Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org or check out my homepage: http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html . From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 13:17:10 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA01335; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:17:10 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA24570; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:23:06 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23612; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 18:16:45 GMT Received: from luga.latrobe.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23089; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:16:01 -0500 Received: from lux.latrobe.edu.au (lux.latrobe.edu.au [131.172.4.3]) by luga.latrobe.edu.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA05710 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 05:15:20 +1100 Received: by lux.latrobe.edu.au (5.67a/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA10523; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 05:15:19 +1100 Message-Id: <199503021815.AA10523@lux.latrobe.edu.au> Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 05:15:19 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Matthew W. Hamel" at Mar 2, 95 11:13:36 am From: dwayne@leri.edu (Dwayne) Organisation: NEXUS-melbourne. X-Url: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/dwayne.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 800 Status: RO X-Status: I peeled a grape, and found that Matthew W. Hamel had written upon it: : : They also : turn the tables and sneer at those not willing to sacrifice their : appliances (or electricity, or city sewage, or car, or... you get the : idea) and really "rough it." Speak for yourself. I have no intention of "roughing it" if I can avoid it. Dwayne. -------> dwayne@leri.edu <-------- * http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/Permaculture/permaculture.html * r e t u r n t o t h e s o u r c e NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier.. mail listserv@netcom.com http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/HTML/ "subscribe nexus-gaia" Dwayne ...our.aim.is.wakefulness.our.enemy.is.dreamless.sleep... From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 13:17:37 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA01657; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:17:37 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA24617; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:23:20 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23250; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 18:16:13 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23208; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:16:10 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA06071 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:15:57 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA26482; Thu Mar 2 13:14:36 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503021814.AA26482@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Wild Cats To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 13:14:36 EST In-Reply-To: ; from "Sal Schettino" at Mar 2, 95 9:35 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 4543 Status: O X-Status: > > On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, Mike Mayer wrote: > > > On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI wrote: > > [snip] > > > Kill.....still goes against my nature. I do not kill anything unless > > > it is in a direct conflict with me (a "my life or his" confrontation). > > > I do completely agree with you about spaying and nuetering. I have > > > been waiting to respond to the note about how someone had wild cats > > > and wanted them to breed other wild cats. I think that is lidicrous. > > > Feral animals are a major problem everywhere in the world. > > [snip] > > > > I agree. Too many feral cats are sick and half blind from eye infections. > > I have no intention of adding to the number of such cats. The two spayed > > cats we have do a great job of keeping the mice down. The first was > > rescued from our junk pile at about 5 weeks of age, fed, eyes cleaned up, > > and ear mites eliminated. The second was found in front of the local school > > in a box. > mine are not sick or blind in fact that are healthy feral cats that love to > hunt to eat. they pounce on ball of twine because mom bring them mice > when they are young and teaches them how to kill. you can call it > instinct i call it training from mom. Moms are the best hunters because > they have to feed the babys. I can no way catch them and spade them they > will not let you come close enough and if I could i don't think i will > because I think if you spade them they losses some of that hunting > instinct. Mom hunts for the babys and teaches them to be good > hunters . everyone has their own ideas of how to treat cats. Some folks > keep them in the house some even dress them in little clothes. Some > treat them like their babys but around here they are just natural cats. > Untill i see a reason to cut off there nuts or cut out their insides i > will pass. the question was what do I do about mice. I say cats. > they work for me. They showed up here and are doing a good job so every > once in a while I feed them . Later if they get to be a bother I will > call and have them taken away but for now they do a great job. I don't > need a pet I need a mouser and a rat eater. They seem very happy to > me.they were raised around the chickens and because of that don't eat > chickens. they eat what mom taught them to eat. If you raise them with > a baby rat they will not eat rats. I raise mine around baby chicks and > have not see them bother the chickens. Mom cat taught them to eat > rats and mice. I would throw them trapped gophers when they were babys > and have found half gophers around in the fild so it must have worked. > They came here complete cats and so far I like the way God made them. > Pesticides and rat poison kills more birds that cats. I know I'm going to > get flamed for this but one reason I like having my own place away from > the city is because I can build it the way i like. And I like whole cats > a little on the hungry side. > > > > > They hunt from instinct, not from hunger alone. I could take a piece of > > baling twine, tie a little knot in the end and shake in front of the > > kitten and it would pounce on it. That's instinct, not hunger. > > > > ============================================================================== > > Mike Mayer (414) 751-3557 Mike.Mayer@plexus.com > > > > > Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org > or check out my homepage: http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html . > > > Hey there! with all due respect, i would like to think we'll never see flame here but respectful dialog. I guess i'll just say since you cannot even get near them fixing is indeed out. However, Is it not a responsible person who choses to minimize the local devestation around ones home, by managing the domestic life? It was man who relegated felines to begin with. Gosh it's so easy to go off on a tangen here but I kinda think it's all part of responsible rural living, there isn't much land left and we should be good to the area. Knowone can think of everything, just that personal freedoms should be balanced with respect towards the life that was there before our settling there. Our neighbors have still not complied with local ordanances that restrict roaming dogs, they chase wildlife and they stole some dearskins of mine hanging outside our porch! I do appreciate the observations of what cats eat and what the'll live with. I'll take that to heart. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 13:47:50 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA19777; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:47:50 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA29253; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:53:32 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11296; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 18:37:02 GMT Received: from firewall.meaddata.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10656; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:36:29 -0500 Received: from meaddata.com ([138.12.96.71]) by firewall.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22751; Thu, 2 Mar 95 13:38:21 EST Received: from moe.meaddata.com by meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10896; Thu, 2 Mar 95 13:37:13 EST Received: by moe.meaddata.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20220; Thu, 2 Mar 95 13:37:10 EST Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 13:37:10 EST From: barb@meaddata.com (Barb Bruns) Message-Id: <9503021837.AA20220@moe.meaddata.com> To: homestead@world.std.com Subject: Re: Getting Together Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1105 Status: O X-Status: > >How many times has anyone read about the folks who clean up a vacant lot for > >growing and getting people together to do it. I always read how good it > >makes them feel to commune together and see some beauty in an otherwise > >ugly, dirty place. thanks for the response above. I think city mgt. > >needs to work more with these kind of ideas. it would benifit all of us > >in the long run. > > Often you read that later the city has thrown those gardens out > because the lot did not belong to the gardners or the city wanted the tax > revenue from another strip mall on the site. True, but some survive. The city of Cincinnati has at least a dozen of these gardens, designed, planted, and maintained by one paid coordinator, a bunch of volunteers, and the residents of the neighborhoods they are in. It's a well-run organization (Civic Garden Center). They do good things, put on gardening seminars, garden shows, hold plant & bulb sales to help fund themselves. I think the greatest funding comes from the city, though. Barb barb@meaddata.com I don't speak for LEXIS-NEXIS. From homestead-approval@world.std.com Thu Mar 2 14:31:15 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA16134; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:31:15 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA04644; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:37:09 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22294; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 19:25:00 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22276; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:24:58 -0500 Received: from qualcomm.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQyfiz12949; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:22:52 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id LAA12951 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:21:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199503021921.LAA12951@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 11:21:06 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: community gardens (was: Getting Together) X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1266 Status: RO X-Status: D >True, but some survive. The city of Cincinnati has at least a dozen of >these gardens, designed, planted, and maintained by one paid coordinator, >a bunch of volunteers, and the residents of the neighborhoods they are >in. It's a well-run organization (Civic Garden Center). They do good >things, put on gardening seminars, garden shows, hold plant & bulb >sales to help fund themselves. I think the greatest funding comes from >the city, though. > >Barb Some do survive but some don't and pass on to other things. One of my favorite garden catalogs started as a community garden in San Jose CA. The garden was taken away and converted into a parking lot. The founders bought land in Willits and started some research gardens and a mail order catalog. They are know as Bountiful Gardens. There is also a garden shop in Palo Alto that I have not seen. They are located about a half mile from my mother place and I hope to make a trip there this summer. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 17:06:00 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA09217; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 17:06:00 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA10681; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 17:11:30 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25474; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 21:58:47 GMT Received: from qualcomm.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25403; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 16:58:45 -0500 Received: from c_dbowen (dbowen.qualcomm.com [129.46.162.57]) by qualcomm.com (8.6.9/QC-MAIN-2.1) with SMTP id NAA04386 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:58:41 -0800 Message-Id: <199502282158.NAA04386@qualcomm.com> X-Sender: c_dbowen@wizard.qualcomm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:58:19 -0800 To: homestead@world.std.com From: c_dbowen@qualcomm.com (Don Bowen) Subject: Re: Getting Together X-Mailer: Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 950 Status: RO X-Status: > > I think classes are a key word here, as we know it was technology > and the monopolising of such that caused the stratification of people > to begin with (beginning in Europe). Europe in general and all "advanced" societies have some sort of class structure. The royalty was "empowered by god" and the peasents were just labor. The technology of trade and transportation di gave rise to a middle class. THe rush of consumer goods brought about increased technology helped convert the middle and upper classes into consumers and further defined a line between producers and consumers. Producers had less worth than consumers. Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours From homestead-approval@world.std.com Tue Feb 28 20:17:14 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA15164; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 20:17:14 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA18669; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:12:44 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19112; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 23:02:17 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19068; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:02:14 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA10195 for ; Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:02:12 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:02:12 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Re: Getting Together To: homestead@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199502281903.LAA06368@qualcomm.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 2483 Status: RO X-Status: Sure, I think there's no reason not to leave it flexible - if there are folks who are willing to leave the invitation open, that's great. I'm thinking, based on the suggestions so far, that I might start a list of host volunteers, and note their geographical location, preferences for scheduling a visit, and willingness to let us come help with the chores, etc. So, I guess this is an official call for hosts - let me know where you are, what your scheduling terms are, and how you feel about some help for a day. Also, I should note that Real Goods had a sparse distribution of hosts throughout the entire US, and some people were willing to travel sizable distances for the event. I agree, however, that it would be awfully nice to be able to schedule a visit when in town. Hosts, I think I'll get a county/state from you and a contact phone, rather than a full address. That way, if you want to let people schedule more freely, they won't feel obliged to just show up on your doorstep ;) ! By the way, anyone in southern W. Va, the Asheville, NC area, or southwest Virginia willing to have a visitor on the homestead in April? On Tue, 28 Feb 1995, Don Bowen wrote: > >I've never gone to one - how much nicer it would be to visit the homesteads > >of "friends" we already know via Internet! > > One problem is that the community of the Internet is spread out over > the entire country. The subcommunity of the homestead list is very thin on > the ground. I live in San Diego County CA, most who responded live in OH, > PA or some other east coast location. Might it be better to extend some > sort of open invitation or to at least indicate you would not mind having > some give a call when in the area? > > > Donald E. Bowen donb@cts.com > Valley Center CA. c_dbowen@qualcomm.com > > Software Engineer, woodworker, historian, beekeeper, farmboy > model railroader, 1936 Farmall 12, 1966 Corvair CORSA 140 convertible > 1 wife, 3 kids, 2 acres, 2 cats, 2 dogs, ? projects, 24 hours > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 09:59:45 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA24695; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:59:45 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA10413; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:05:49 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28259; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 14:55:27 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28251; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:55:26 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA07130 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:55:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:55:22 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Real Goods Remote Homes Tour To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 968 Status: RO X-Status: Another quick point about the Remote Homes Tour - I'm sure I'm not alone in this - I have held the dream of homesteading for many years, all the while hearing negative (and some positive) comments from family and friends. It was really important to be able to visit people who are really doing it, and see that they're pretty much like me. After the tour, I felt like I could really do this, and I haven't been crazy all these years! Reading about it is nice, but seeing someone else living it was a much more powerful motivator. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 10:15:08 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA03285; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:15:08 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA11934; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:21:19 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12978; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:18:36 GMT Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12960; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:18:34 -0500 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA12120 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:18:31 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:18:31 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Evans Subject: Help Bank To: Homestead Mailing List Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1359 Status: RO X-Status: While we're batting around ideas about how to do more than just chat on a mailing list, here's another one to kick around- My brother, who lives in a remote home in Eastern Tennessee, is adding a passive-solar addtion to the south side of his house. He's participating in a construction help bank - a bunch of people who are willing to help build his addition in return for help from him on their projects. A log book is being kept of hours "banked" by each participant, which they can call on when they need help. It's sort of like the barn-raising idea. These people come from all around the region to do this. Any interest in setting up some regional help banks and/or cataloging existing ones? I know I'd be willing to kick in some time in return for help when I go to build my place. I'm planning on spending some time on my brother's project in order to participate in that bank, but the more the merrier. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Evans | Compu$erve: 70711,745 | | Compass Point Software, Inc. | Internet: aevans@cais.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From homestead-approval@world.std.com Wed Mar 1 10:16:38 1995 Return-Path: Received: from europe.std.com by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack) id AA04146; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:16:38 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA11963; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:21:27 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11610; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:16:07 GMT Received: from dns004.ford.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11590; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:16:05 -0500 Received: from pms923.pms.ford.com (pms923.pms.ford.com [19.1.32.46]) by dns004.ford.com (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA20275 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 10:16:02 -0500 Received: by pms923.pms.ford.com (5.61/1.3U) id AA24004; Wed Mar 1 10:14:45 1995 From: henning@pms923.pms.ford.com (Karl Henning) Message-Id: <9503011514.AA24004@pms923.pms.ford.com> Subject: Re: Wild Cats To: homestead@world.std.com Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 10:14:44 EST In-Reply-To: ; from "Andrew Hulse" at Feb 28, 95 5:07 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: homestead-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: homestead@world.std.com Content-Length: 1626 Status: RO X-Status: > I grew up on a farm like this, but I have read quite a number of articles > in recent years about the damage that cats do to songbird populations. > Apparently it's gotten so bad in Great Britain that they're in danger of > losing entire species. It sort of gave me a new perspective on my > father's lament about the disappearance of bluebirds and barn swallows > over the past thirty years. > > There are other factors as well, namely destruction of habitat in North > and Central America, but as a cat person I wonder if I should put a bell > on my cat when she leaves the barn... > > Does anyone else consider this? > > --Andy > > Andrew Hulse | Opinions are mine, not the Regents' > graduate student, EECS | University of California Absolutley thats a good idea. We also have a mouser and he is good about it in the basement but when we let him out he also good about getting things that help the soil. In one case the moles are bad if they eat the roots in the garden but they also eat grubs, small white worm like critters. the cat also eats small garden snakes which I want cause they eat other bugs. So I am in a little bit of a dilema with the cat outside. He just kills and does not always eat it. I don't want him starving and i don't want him getting parasites and worms cause he eats dead things. I certainly do not want him eating birds. However, we also have a Malmute and anyone who knows this breed knows they dig. She has been a contributer to the declining mole family in out backyard and and perimeter of the garden ans she does not eat song birds.